Time to remove VAT from Bikes

VAT on bikes is unfair

  • Yes, it should be completely removed

    Votes: 48 75.0%
  • Some VAT should be paid

    Votes: 6 9.4%
  • Full VAT should be paid

    Votes: 10 15.6%

  • Total voters
    64

BrianSmithers

Pedelecer
Apr 21, 2011
56
1
DA1
Disagree with that, at least it was an attempt to inject capitol into the working environment, not white elephants. It got rid of 'old bangers' helped car franchises, service workers, transport, etc.
My rebuttal to that argument Biged, is that a great deal of that injected capital went right out of the country given that most new cars part exchanged for bangers were made elsewhere (and consequently, into their economy). On the environmental side, yes I agree that some old bangers were removed from the road but at the environmental cost (and balance of trade costs) of manufacturing cars that didn't otherwise need to be made. The big winners out of this tax payer subsidised bonanza were small car manufacturers like Hyundai and a lot of overseas car producers.

There were many years of useful life left in some of those older cars and the environmental impact of making them had already happened. The only environmental impact left was the running of them and not all of them covered high mileage.

Like the temporary drop of 2.5% VAT (which didn't make me run out and splurge on a big plasma TV), it was a dopey idea by the last lot in power - only to be equalled by some of the ideas of the current dopey lot.

I fear that in my dotage I am becoming Victor Meldrew.

- Brian
 
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indalo

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
1,380
1
Herts & Spain
I fear that in my dotage I am becoming Victor Meldrew.

- Brian
Do not fear Brian; many of us, having achieved a certain age, resemble V Meldrew, increasingly so for me as I get older! It doesn't make us bad people though. Indeed, many of the younger generations find us quite amusing......ok, maybe it's just me they laugh at!

Never forget though; you don't stop laughing because you grow old; you grow old because you stop laughing!

Indalo
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,872
30,417
VAT on bikes is only a concern to the likes of people on this forum (inc me), people who pay a lot for a bike, you can get a bike for under 100 quid at any number of places, not such a big problem then.
Indeed, the only people who might otherwise be put off by VAT are those who buy bikes at such low cost that VAT isn't significant enough to influence the purchase decision.

As for getting the EU to change the rules on VAT levels, they will merely point to the huge popularity of bikes in such places as the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark where VAT doesn't stop them buying.
 

timidtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 19, 2009
757
175
Cheshire
GambiaGOES.blogspot.com
I think that liability to pay a tax should be directly linked to the ability to pay a tax. So, to an old Marxist like me: VAT = Bad Tax, Income Tax + Good Tax.
But what do I know?
Happy ebiking!
Tom.
 

the_killjoy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 26, 2008
822
226
The car scrappage scheme would only have made sense on environmental grounds if the new car bought under it had to be in the minimum emission class.

This was not done as it would have adversly affected imports ~ the main uk producers (landrover et al) tend to only produce large, relatively high emission vehicles.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,872
30,417
I think that liability to pay a tax should be directly linked to the ability to pay a tax. So, to an old Marxist like me: VAT = Bad Tax, Income Tax + Good Tax.
I agree in principle, but VAT is linked to the ability to pay it.

Those with more money tend to buy more in both quantity and price and thus pay more VAT. To protect the least able, essentials like food, childrens clothes and some other items are exempt. Thus the system is intrinsically fair.
 

Biged

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 7, 2010
269
0
Watnall, Nottingham
I agree in principle, but VAT is linked to the ability to pay it.

Those with more money tend to buy more in both quantity and price and thus pay more VAT. To protect the least able, essentials like food, childrens clothes and some other items are exempt. Thus the system is intrinsically fair.
I wouldn't exactly call it fair, the poor pay a far larger percentage of their income in VAT, they have no choice.
It's not on childrens clothes as you say, well not small children and some foodstuffs, but heating, fuel, transport, any repairs building or vehicle, and many more necessities incur it.

The rich only buy so many plasma tv's and 4 x4's :rolleyes:
 

timidtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 19, 2009
757
175
Cheshire
GambiaGOES.blogspot.com
I agree in principle, but VAT is linked to the ability to pay it.

Those with more money tend to buy more in both quantity and price and thus pay more VAT. To protect the least able, essentials like food, childrens clothes and some other items are exempt. Thus the system is intrinsically fair.
Mmmm. No, not so. If I'm very rich the 20% VAT I pay on, say, a new TV is a tiny tiny part of my wealth. If I'm very, very poor I may 1) be unable to buy a TV or 2) if I do make the purchase the VAT is a much higher proportion of my wealth. It's also amazing how much some of my friends in business manage to claim back in VAT! The rich get richer and the poor get poorer ...
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,872
30,417
The rich only buy so many plasma tv's and 4 x4's :rolleyes:
But as said, they pay much more for them. I've bought a £15k 4 x 4, but many around here pay 3 to 4 times that, incurring 3 to 4 times the VAT I paid.

The rich on the local private gated estates often have £50k plus home cinemas, same applies.

Of course no tax is absolutely fair, but VAT is often as fair or fairer than income tax. Does the £2 million a year plus £3 million bonus executive pay a fair amount of income tax? I think not.

But yes, the poor do get poorer and the rich get richer, but VAT is only a tiny factor in that process.
.
 
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JuicyBike

Trade Member
Jan 26, 2009
1,671
527
Derbyshire
So the question is should bikes be considered a necessity and taxed accordingly, like children's clothes, books, baby milk, postage stamps, (public school fees) and other essentials. Personally, I think a bike is an essential piece of kit and to be consistent, should be zero rated.
 

indalo

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
1,380
1
Herts & Spain
So the question is should bikes be considered a necessity and taxed accordingly, like children's clothes, books, baby milk, postage stamps, (public school fees) and other essentials. Personally, I think a bike is an essential piece of kit and to be consistent, should be zero rated.
Nice idea Bob but I have a real difficulty buying the contention that a bike is an essential piece of kit. For the vast majority, that is simply not fact.

Now, if the question was, "Why should women's sanitary towels attract any VAT?" (5%, I understand) I would agree with the 'essential piece of kit' notion and seek to have zero VAT levied on all such products.

I think the full VAT rate as applied to bikes is right and proper.

Indalo
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Most of these bikes come from China,even the high end German and Dutch suppliers buy the frames from China-they make so many ally frames now they have the best kit and their welders are very skilled. However what is not common knowledge is the import duty enjoyed by our governments on these products-for electric bikes,if the asian supply is less than 40% of the total the duty is 3.8%,if the supply is more than 40% of the total the duty is 6%. But the anti-dumping duty on conventional bikes is a mighty 48%!!!!!!!!!
So we in the e-bike world currently enjoy a special situation. Probably not legal but it is possible to buy an electric carbon frame bike,strip out the electrics and have a frame which ex-duty has nil cost.
Dave
KudosCycles
 

JuicyBike

Trade Member
Jan 26, 2009
1,671
527
Derbyshire
Didn't the Chingford Skinhead, now Lord Tebbit, consider the bike a necessity? (by implication)
 

JuicyBike

Trade Member
Jan 26, 2009
1,671
527
Derbyshire
Maybe as the cuts begin to bite we'll be relying on those with bikes to chase the feral kids...
Essential? Getting more so every day!
 

GeoffM

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 18, 2009
13
0
I live in a rural district. No buses around here. Ou village has no shop to speak of and the nearest petrol station is 4 miles away. I couldn't afford to get by without my bike. Fortunately I am in work and can work from home. I can see why some high earners who can easily afford to run cars would think a bike is just for leisure but i reckon for many a bike is a lifeline.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,872
30,417
As much as I would like to see reductions, I still think these are impossible to argue for.

Britain isn't a cycling country, it's very much a minority and leisure interest here. By contrast, in The Netherlands, Denmark and Germany, cycling is very widespread and much more for utility purposes rather than just leisure.

But there the population not only buy much dearer e-bikes on the whole, they buy them with substantial VAT rates, 19% in The Netherlands and Germany, 25% in Denmark. Since we are trading partners with the EU and are subject to EU VAT rules, our case for reductions is very weak. Add to that the privileged import duty position on e-bikes that we enjoy, as Dave of Kudos has observed above, and the case becomes hopeless.

There are back-door reductions possible though. Although opposed by a number of countries including Germany surprisingly, there is a 6% VAT rate that can be sneaked onto some more minor things. For example, in The Netherlands the VAT rate on bicycle repairs is only 6% instead of their standard 19%.
 

eclectic_bike

Pedelecer
May 3, 2011
72
3
I support removing or reducing VAT but it isn't going to happen under this Government. Not while the Prime Minister counts petrol head Jeremy Clarkson as his close friend and George Osborne is leading the way to make this Government the most environmentally destructive ever.
 

JuicyBike

Trade Member
Jan 26, 2009
1,671
527
Derbyshire
As much as I would like to see reductions, I still think these are impossible to argue for.

Britain isn't a cycling country, it's very much a minority and leisure interest here. By contrast, in The Netherlands, Denmark and Germany, cycling is very widespread and much more for utility purposes rather than just leisure.

But there the population not only buy much dearer e-bikes on the whole, they buy them with substantial VAT rates, 19% in The Netherlands and Germany, 25% in Denmark. Since we are trading partners with the EU and are subject to EU VAT rules, our case for reductions is very weak. Add to that the privileged import duty position on e-bikes that we enjoy, as Dave of Kudos has observed above, and the case becomes hopeless.

There are back-door reductions possible though. Although opposed by a number of countries including Germany surprisingly, there is a 6% VAT rate that can be sneaked onto some more minor things. For example, in The Netherlands the VAT rate on bicycle repairs is only 6% instead of their standard 19%.
I have a great deal of respect for you Tony, but have to say this discussion, for me, isn't about whether VAT can practically or legally be reduced or removed from bikes, but whether it should be.

This year I have noticed increasing trends in bike purchase to provide practical transport, often as replacement for combustion commuting. I hear customers, increasingly younger customers, argue their need is for cheap transport "to get to work" and to "help make ends meet".

This trend rapidly became apparent to me as, initially VAT rose in January, and then as fuel prices increased during the early part of this year. Previously purchase of our bikes tended to be for mainly leisure and health reasons.

It's pleasing in some respects that the choice is between combustion and electric as I am very keen to help reduce combustion use. It suits my environmental principals and is a reason why I don't choose, for instance, to sell fags and booze.

But I also feel a strong concern for those in our community that are struggling to get to work, in increasingly diminishing employment conditions. Especially the young, who were promised, before the credit crunch happened, a reasonably wide choice of decent careers in which to invest their hope and provide motivation.

As the cuts really start to bite I am becoming more and more concerned that transport costs are becoming critical in the budgets of the low paid. My own daughter in London, who studied hard and achieved a great Honours Degree in a difficult academic subject from St Martins, is now travelling across London to work as a retail assistant in the West End.

For her, affording accommodation, repaying her education loan, eating and maintaining friendships, having a sense of purpose and value within society would be impossible without her bike. Walking is not practical and public transport, even in London with its comprehensive and reliable infrastructure, is prohibitively expensive.

Until recently I have been out of touch with the reality that the poorest in our society have to spend, in order to adequately survive, and be properly part of society. I admit to feeling more than a little guilty when I reflect on the opportunities I have had, in education and employment, compared to what exist for younger people today.

I believe it's time to question whether a bicycle is a luxury item or an essential aide for those without much choice to fully participate in a society which is increasingly becoming polarised between the fortunate and able, and those, through no fault of their own, suffering the consequences of what has happened during the last 30 or more years.

I have long subscribed not to "survival of the fittest" doctrine, but "protection for the weakest" and I think that honourable value can be reflected in how we choose to tax. It's a value that the UK should offer to the rest of Europe.

Please excuse this rant!
Bob
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,872
30,417
Automatically excused Bob, and there is much in your views that I agree with. My posts just highlight the "tilting at windmills" nature of the proposal, since as many posts show, most are not aware of the rules and seem to think our governments can simply make such decisions, and accord blame unfairly.

I see the validity of the arguments for removing VAT from bikes, the environmental advantage and the essential transport aspect for some, but as ever, where are the dividing lines. These days, countryside dwellers in the absence of shops, post offices, banks, bus routes etc are often totally dependent on their cars and suffer from high fuel duty as well as VAT. There are many other equally valid cases for taxation relief, and an opposing sound argument can be made for putting VAT on absolutely everything at a very much lower rate.

The core problem is the principle of VAT itself of course, inflationary in nature and tending to be inflexible. In the days before VAT when we paid purchase tax, Chancellors placed products into tax bands according to their essentials or luxuries character, and flexibility was easy to apply for different users even within products, since that tax only appeared at the final consumer purchase stage.

Those tax levels were anything from zero to 100%, making it easy to put the burden onto the luxury goods that the rich buy, but have no tax or low tax on the essentials that even the poor must have.