What Would You Put in a Buying Guide?

[EdBike]

I'm preparing a buyers guide that will be ready to launch early next year. What I'd like to know for you guys is what you think in terms of structuring it. So far, I've got this set out:

1. Introduction - What is an electric bike?
2. Benefits of Electric Bikes (how an electric bike delivers these benefits)
3. Electric Bike Parts and Types of Electric Bike
4. Choosing Your Electric Bike
5. Trying an electric bike out
6. Buying your electric bike (+ what makes a good dealer)
7. Your First Ride (plus resources like BicycleSafe.com and the Pedelecs Forum!)

This will be available as an online version first, and then a nice printable PDF as well as an mp3 for people to listen to away from a computer (like when they're stuck in traffic ).

I plan to offer this to dealers where they can get their logo imprinted on the file and save them having to write their own buyers guide and buying materials. We may even be able to get customised booklets printed if people want them!

Anyways - I'd like to know what you think about the order. Reading through the forum, that seems to be the path most people seem to take.

I'd also love to hear your suggestions for anything that you'd like to see in the Ultimate Buyers Guide?

 

[allen-uk]

How well or badly an electric bike performs when the battery goes dead 10 miles from home.

Fair enough, that sort of catastrophe only happens to the very unlucky, but over the past months I've noticed several other people who voice similar concerns to me, i.e. that bikes billed as "use as an electric bike, or switch the power off and ride like a conventional bike" are at best being over-optimistically described, and at worst....


Allen.

 

[EdBike]

How well or badly an electric bike performs when the battery goes dead 10 miles from home.

Fair enough, that sort of catastrophe only happens to the very unlucky, but over the past months I've noticed several other people who voice similar concerns to me, i.e. that bikes billed as "use as an electric bike, or switch the power off and ride like a conventional bike" are at best being over-optimistically described, and at worst....

Allen.

Great suggestion. I think that goes alongside the 'try one first before buying' in terms of importance as general rule of thumb on this forum. If a bike is good ride without power, its likely a good buy - and that must include an unintentional 10 mile slog!

 

[Blew it]

Ten mile slog!, if it was a hub motored bike, it would be in the back of a van long before that. Twice I have been caught out six miles from home due to electrical failures, it was no joke pedalling the darn thing home.

I suspect the only machines that can realistically be ridden as a conventional bike, are those using a drive-through-the-chain system. Panasonic, Yamaha and Daum to name just three.

Here's an idea for setting an Industry wide benchmark, against which all machines could be measured for rideability without electrical assistance. It would probably be something like a rolling road, or perhaps an adapted treadmill thingy. With the machine under test mounted on the rig, it should be fairly easy to produce a graph showing the resistance of the drive-train at various road speeds.

Regards
Bob

 

[EdBike]

Here's an idea for setting an Industry wide benchmark, against which all machines could be measured for rideability without electrical assistance. It would probably be something like a rolling road, or perhaps an adapted treadmill thingy. With the machine under test mounted on the rig, it should be fairly easy to produce a graph showing the resistance of the drive-chain at various road speeds.

Regards
Bob

Bob, that's a great idea! This is something I'll talk to the folks at BEBA about, although funding and building/buying a rig may take some time.

I plan on getting a whole load of us to do a review day next year, so a power-off uphill test might be something worth trying out.

 

[HarryB]

I suspect the only machines that can realistically be ridden as a conventional bike, are those using a drive-through-the-chain system. Panasonic, Yamaha and Daum to name just three.

Cytronex or any other tongxin powered bike. I know I have done it and it is not bad at all (also the cytronex are very light anyway).

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Sorry to go off topic, but I wish people wouldn't keep condemming hub motors as if they're all the same. There's some people trying to choose an ideal bike, and when they read some of the comments here, they could easily get the impression that hub motors are unsuitable, which would severely reduce their choice. There are many different types and although I can't comment on what they are each like, I can confirm that my Bafang 8Fun QSWXK and my neighbours SWXB both ride exactly like a normal bike with no noticeable resistance. In fact we both, when touring, tend to ride with the electric assist switched off completely all the time except when going up hill, or if there is a strong adverse wind.
So, to come back on topic and cut all this rubbish, it would be nice to have an actual measured value for a bike's rolling resistance and, although I can't see how it could be done, some values for the rider effort to maintain a nominal speed -say 12 or 15ph.

 

[EdBike]

Sorry to go off topic, but I wish people wouldn't keep condemming hub motors as if they're all the same. There's some people trying to choose an ideal bike, and when they read some of the comments here, they could easily get the impression that hub motors are unsuitable, which would severely reduce their choice. There are many different types and although I can't comment on what they are each like, I can confirm that my Bafang 8Fun QSWXK and my neighbours SWXB both ride exactly like a normal bike with no noticeable resistance. In fact we both, when touring, tend to ride with the electric assist switched off completely all the time except when going up hill, or if there is a strong adverse wind.
So, to come back on topic and cut all this rubbish, it would be nice to have an actual measured value for a bike's rolling resistance and, although I can't see how it could be done, some values for the rider effort to maintain a nominal speed -say 12 or 15ph.

Hmmm...

Would something like testing the revolutions of a two different wheels on a bike make any difference. For example:

1. Setup a treadmill for 15mph (and different speeds)
2. Lift up bike using mighty strength
3. Touching down front wheel for 5 seconds and then removing it
4. Timing the time it takes to stop spinning OR counting revolutions
5. Repeat with back wheel
6. Deduct result from hub motor wheel from the non-motor wheel.
7. Find interesting information + draw pretty graph, comparing different models

There seems to be a lot of support on this forum for chain-driven motors, especially the Panasonic system, but a lot of people still ride hub motor bikes. You raise an important point. This will definitely go into the reviews we're going to do.

 

[Blew it]

.....so, to come back on topic and cut all this rubbish.

Erm, which 'rubbish' are you referring to?

How are any of the replies to this thread 'off topic' ?

 

[jbond]

I suspect the only machines that can realistically be ridden as a conventional bike, are those using a drive-through-the-chain system. Panasonic, Yamaha and Daum to name just three.

Like others here, I simply can't agree with this. Another datapoint; Alien Aurora, Bafang BPM hub motor. The only problem riding it power off is the weight. The difference in rolling resistance compared with a conventional bike is minimal. Quickly running through the options:-
- Geared hub (EZee, Tongxin/Nano, Bafang). Very small extra friction, partly due to the bearings, partly the gears, partly the internal freewheel. Spin down in 30s instead of 90s.
- Direct Drive hub (Magic pie, Crystalite). 50-100w to get over "cogging". Not acceptable without power
- Panasonic. Normal freewheel under no power at all. Motor off and resistance is from a freewheel and gearbox roughly similar but perhaps a bit less than a geared hub.
- Friction drive. They're almost all home built, so hard to tell. In general the friction drive lifts away from the tyre when powered off.

So really, apart from the Direct Drive hub, it's all about weight and not about resistance and friction. And unless you have a BIG motor, the majority of the extra weight is battery.

So then the next problem. Weight is only really a problem going up hill, and it's mitigated by a decently wide spread of gears. If you're stuck with 3, 6 or 7 gears that may not be enough with no motor power.

And so we finally get to the point. IMHO, E-Bikes should work well as bicycles first. Get that right and the assist then improves them. E-Bikes shouldn't *need* the assist simply to work.

 

[HarryB]

This topic comes up quite regularily and the verdict is that most hub motored electric bikes are not pleasant to ride without power (Tongxin excepted). I have ridden quite a few and while I think they have improved there is some way to go to match a unpowered bike or the panasonics etc.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/6704-wisper-so-hard-pedal-without-power.html?highlight=freewheel

And so we finally get to the point. IMHO, E-Bikes should work well as bicycles first. Get that right and the assist then improves them. E-Bikes shouldn't *need* the assist simply to work.

I strongly agree with you on this point but unfortunately not all geared hub bikes are the same so I think it is valid point to put it in a guide. The difficulty will be how to do an objective test - the spin down test certainly doesn't work.

 

[NRG]

I would find Jbond's and d8veh posts quite belivable if it where not for the fact that I've compared the drag of the 8Fun/Bafang SWX motor directly on my Peugeot DIY bike.

I find the Peugeot nice to ride up to about 13mph unassisted where on it becomes increasingly difficult, if I didn't know better I would say it rode just like a non assisted bike but I know that this is utter nonsense. The difference between dropping a standard wheel in place of the motor wheel is night and day not just by simple run down timing to stop but also out on the road.

Timing the Bafang from 13.5mph unloaded to stop takes ~25 seconds, dropping in the original wheel it takes 1min 35 seconds from......2.8mph!

This is easily felt when riding, its not just down to weight, these motors do add drag and until you remove it you will think it normal. Even the rear wheel with its freewheel on my Peugeot takes a significantly longer time to stop.


Edit: Temperature plays a part in this as well. With the motor wheel at room temp spin down takes 40 seconds from the same speed.

 

[flecc]

I agree with jbond and Harry that the bike needs to be a good bike in the first place and far too many Chinese designs fall far short of that ideal.

With poor design and frame geometry, high rolling resistance tyres, badly specified gearing, high all-up weight, a bike doesn't stand a chance even without the motor being considered.

A major difference with the Panasonic unit bikes has been the unit has almost always been applied by companies already hugely experienced in top class bicycle design.

I have to say though that I've yet to ride a production e-bike with an internally geared motor which I can pedal for more than a very short time without power. Many are impossibly hard work.
.

 

[Orraman]

EdBike,

At the risk of boring seasoned members, my apologies.

I joined this forum seeking help to convert my class 3 invalid carriage to pedal assist.
Dicky ticker, duff leg, great difficulty walking, Doc said exercise or your heart will stop.

Two years on a Panasonic powered bike with a 3 speed hub and my capability has changed from utter exhaustion on a 400 yard hill of 1 in 49 to comfortable on my regular 1.5 mile 200 feet climb taking a trailer load of shopping to my sister. Taking my time in bottom gear with maximum assistance there is no local hill that causes me distress.

All this to say that the medical and social benefits of ebikes are not publicised as the tremendous advance that it has proven to be in my case.
Modern ebikes particularly the Panasonic and the like present an alternative that mobility scooter riders (many with heart problems) could benefit from if they were encouraged to try.

I would encourage you to research this use of ebikes so that you can explain the advantages to those in need of these benefits.

Dave

 

[EdBike]

EdBike,

At the risk of boring seasoned members, my apologies.

I joined this forum seeking help to convert my class 3 invalid carriage to pedal assist.
Dicky ticker, duff leg, great difficulty walking, Doc said exercise or your heart will stop.

Two years on a Panasonic powered bike with a 3 speed hub and my capability has changed from utter exhaustion on a 400 yard hill of 1 in 49 to comfortable on my regular 1.5 mile 200 feet climb taking a trailer load of shopping to my sister. Taking my time in bottom gear with maximum assistance there is no local hill that causes me distress.

All this to say that the medical and social benefits of ebikes are not publicised as the tremendous advance that it has proven to be in my case.
Modern ebikes particularly the Panasonic and the like present an alternative that mobility scooter riders (many with heart problems) could benefit from if they were encouraged to try.

I would encourage you to research this use of ebikes so that you can explain the advantages to those in need of these benefits.

Dave

Dave,

You have a fantastic story and you're clearly a seasoned writer. Why not share your story here (out of the way of 'boring seasoned members' but right where new, prospective buyers might be ) - Electric Bike Owners and Stories | Share Your Own Stories, and

The medical and health is a big issue - Britain's obesity rate is something ridiculous isn't it? There's lots of potential here from the serious cases to simply appealing to office workers who spend their lives sat in cubicles, on the train and at home on the sofa.

What would be really great is some case studies me thinks...