When 15 mph isn't enough

jakers

Just Joined
Dec 31, 2008
3
0
I'm a keen former cyclist interested in an add on kit to increase the performance and range of an already efficient bicycle. I can ride at well over 15mph all day up and down anything but the steepest hills, so an electric bike kit limited to 15mph is no use to me. I understand the UK laws on electric bikes limiting motor wattage and top speed, but also guess that the average traffic cop won't know or care about the difference between a 200 and a 900 watt hub motor. I also think it would be very difficult for them to prove at any time that a fit person was just cycling fast and what component of their speed was provided by motor or pedalling. especially if the cyclist in question was capable of sustaining over 30mph for short bursts anyway with the motor swiched off.

Add on kits such as the Canadian made Bionx range are quite appealing. has anybody had experience of importing and using a UK non legal kit?

It seems to me that the marketing of electric bicycles is missing a trick in this country. I think there would be a lot of people like me out there that don't want some heavy outdated cruiser type bike limited to 15mph. Rather something that could be bolted to an efficient carbon bike that would allow them to average 25 -30 mph on their daily commute into work rather than the low 20s, but allow them to keep to their bike friendly shortcuts and cycle routes.

I see that these powerful kits can be bought and imported into the UK, and I also see that they are not illegal to own and use on private land. I also see from web searching that many motor ranges have a weedy uk spec motor and a series of more powerful foriegn spec motors, but the pictures look like the hub bodies are generally the same so once identification stickers were removed it would be very difficult for authorities to see at the roadside what power output a motor had. So come on, where are all the people that have bought them and are using them (not on the road of course!)

In most cities, an electrically assisted slick tyred mountainbike bike with disc brakes that can with a fitish rider blast through all the traffic at over 25 mph everywhere, would have to be the fastest mode of transport available and could really start to look like an appealing solution to societies' transport problems. Electric transport needs to shed its geeky Sinclair C5 image in this country if its going to take off, and bikes legally limited to a speed lower than that which any fit person can pedal anyway are not the way to do it. I am so convinced that this could be the way ahead I'm willing to do it anyway and face the consequences, and I expect there are may more people like me if the kits were made more widely available and marketed in the right way to the right people.

I'm also a freelance journalist and thinking about publishing my experiences with living with such a mode of transport to publicise the concept of high performance 'speed increasing motors' to the rest of the cycling public. I think that recent developments in battery technology have made this a concept that has now reached its time.

Anybody doing this already and prepared to use the anonymous medium of a web forum to share knowlege and lessons learnt with the rest of us?

My initial questions are as follows:
Is it legal to import into the UK a higher power bike motor for offroad private land use?
Is it legal to use a bike so equipped on the public road in the UK if the rider does not hit the button to employ motor power?
Has anybody heard of any police prosecutions in the UK for using bicycles equipped with motors over the power limit.
Is anybody yet aggressively marketing such motors to current keen cylists in the UK wishing to go faster or gain more of a 'buzz' out of their cycling?
Has anybody played with legal or illegal motors in the UK to make them higher speed assisting motors, not necessarilly capable of pulling the bike from standstill? For example, by building a 15mph spec hub motor into a larger wheel than it is specified for, hence upping the gearing?
Many thanks
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,789
30,369
The answer to "When 15 mph isn't enough" is, buy a moped. :)

Seriously, it's not illegal to import a higher powered motor, but an offence of using it can bring numerous charges since it becomes a motor vehicle having no type approval, unregistered, untaxed, without insurance etc etc. Using such a vehicle is likely to lead to a driving ban whether one has a driving licence or not. There would also be the loss of many privileges such as use of cyclepaths, bridlepaths, shared use pavements, and all parking in controlled areas would have to be in motorcycle parking bays

You would be very ill advised to campaign on this issue since it would invite prosecution and would definitely have absolutely no chance of success, so the activity would be pointless. I believe the two former suppliers may have been "warned off" the supply of illegal units since both have suddenly ceased their open supply in this last year without any reason given.

We do have a very few UK users of the BionX 350 watt version imported from Canada, and I believe the odd Crystalyte motor is in use too, but discretion about these is best.
.
 
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Fecn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2008
491
2
Warlingham, Surrey
A lot of Kalkhoff owners have changed the rear sprocket on their bikes to give them higher gearing. This has the effect of increasing the maximum assisted speed. With a 16-tooth sprocket fitted I believe the power assist carries on to around 23mph. I fitted a Nuvinci 350% range hub to my one, which is fantastic as I got to keep all the low ratios as well as gaining new higher ones.
 

The Maestro

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2008
296
0
I too would like to see e-bikes capable of this kind of speed on the road. They would be a serious alternative to cars and motorcycles for many people's daily commutes, especially in (or into) big cities. I could see massive benefits in terms of reducing congestion and reducing pollution.

As has been pointed out though, the government are never going to extend normal bicycle status & privileges to this kind of bike. I personally think that they should but its never going to happen in this country, it just doesn't fit in with the overall vehicle type policies and laws. There would be more accidents as they became more popular and people would jump on them - wailing, irate mothers screaming for them to be banned, and they would get their way even if the overall risk of using them was extremely small and the benefits enormous. Its just how it is in this country.

I suppose there is a small chance that the speed limit could be pushed up to 20 like in the US but I think that's pretty unlikely too. A better strategy might be to come to some kind of 'middle way' and make faster bikes subject to a 'lite' version of current regulation - possibly make insurance compulsory but waive such things as type approval, MOT, displaying number plates, the need for such things as speedometers and permanent lights. I don't really see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to use cycle paths either.

I'd severly limit the acceleration (under power) of the bikes rather than the top speed. Assistance should be there to maintain a good cruising speed while pedalling rather than burning off from a standstill. This would stop most of the potential for people to cause a nuisance on them by riding them aggressively.
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
People will always push the rules to the limit, this was seen years ago when we had moped laws and the FS1E came out. It is happening now as people cherry pick all the best bits advantage of British and EU pedelec law.
Some cyclists ride over 20mph but not many and generally traffic on cycle paths is slow, which is good as many of these paths are shared with pedestrians. Make 20mph pedelecs legal and every 14 year old kid will want one until he turns 16, the cycle paths and many other areas will become places where you regularly risk serious injury - I certainly don't want that.
If you think that more powerful bikes should be allowed but not on cycle paths then get a moped, if you want a moped really but not to bother with MOT and insurance then you will most likely be disappointed.
Once it gets noticed that average cycle speed is increasing then there will be calls to legislate against it, if however a few enthusuasts have a little extra speed on the sly then it can probably carry on for years.
 

nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
I would like to the speed limit increased as others have said but it aint going to happen i suppose 15mph is better then nothing a bike kit could be the way forward for more speed and yes i would take a chance and i dont want a moped because i would have to pay tax and insurance.Nigel.
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
I would like to the speed limit increased as others have said but it aint going to happen i suppose 15mph is better then nothing a bike kit could be the way forward for more speed and yes i would take a chance and i dont want a moped because i would have to pay tax and insurance.Nigel.
So it's all down to tax avoidance, you are guilty of the most henious crime possible and will get hammered if caught. :D
 

bogmonster

Pedelecer
Aug 8, 2008
127
1
I agree that 20mph would be great but I also think it would add significantly to accidents. For my part I am cycling up around this speed anyway and only want the assistance if I start falling away from that speed such as on hills and into headwinds.

The bike will never totally replace a car for me as I live too far away from work and shops and up up big hill that has been iced over for the last few weeks. Therefore I am not prepared to overtly break rules that might cost me my license. As for cycle paths, I think these could become very dangerous with a large uptake in fast moving bikes. Same thing applies on the roads, cars and bikes already struggle competing for space.

20 to 25mph is a dangerous speed on the road. Keeping a bike at this speed at the edge of the road in the dark, wind pot-holed conditions we have takes some skill and concentration. Moving out into the road puts you in the direct firing line of cars (I do cycle further out in the road than I used to but do feel very exposed at times). The roads I use are twisty and unlit but very fast and I find I need to slow my speed down in the winter to maintain an acceptable degree of safety.

I lived in the US for a couple of years and I think things are a little different. Most of the roads are much wider and straight. They are also generally in much better condition.

So, I reluctantly agree that 15mph (or is it 15.5) is probably about right. If you want to go faster then pedel. If you want to go faster again then get a moped or motorbike, you will be more comfortable and probably safer going at these sort of speeds on such a machine and will also have a more solid brain bucket. If being green is important then get an electric moped, I think there are reasonable models availiable now.

If as an individual you wish to push the boundaries a little, then good for you, be safe, be discreet, have fun.

Cheers, BM.
 
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Neil

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2008
63
0
15 mph is too slow

I am not very fit over 50 and just started a 9 mile daily commute to work. I have a pro connect with a 16 cog and average 17-19 mph for the 18 mile commute each day. I swapped bikes and tried out powercycle windsor on the way home and found that I peddled the bike faster than it gave me help. OK I live in flat norfolk but I am not a fit and even for me the 15 mph limit makes the electric bit of the bike useless. For me the pro connect 16 cog brings the power help into the range that is good for me. Is 20 mph too fast, a 100m sprinter goes quicker.
 

Barnowl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 18, 2008
954
1
BM - Totally agree with you. As a town/city commuter I have no use for the extra assisted speed. It greatly increases the cost and danger for no great gain.

Having said that I can see the obvious advantage where people are doing long commutes say 30 - 50 mile round trips and can use the speed on long stretches of decent open road. If I was in the market for such I'd grab a quality electric bike with some sort of "Off Road" option while the goings good.
 

Barnowl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 18, 2008
954
1
I am not very fit over 50 and just started a 9 mile daily commute to work. I have a pro connect with a 16 cog and average 17-19 mph for the 18 mile commute each day. I swapped bikes and tried out powercycle windsor on the way home and found that I peddled the bike faster than it gave me help. OK I live in flat norfolk but I am not a fit and even for me the 15 mph limit makes the electric bit of the bike useless. For me the pro connect 16 cog brings the power help into the range that is good for me. Is 20 mph too fast, a 100m sprinter goes quicker.
No I don't think 20MPH is too fast. I'm over 50 myself and not that fit but cycle well over 20MPH in the right circumstances. However, I find it gets very scary in single lane, fast moving traffic on rough road surfaces at the higher speeds. Even more scary is drivers pulling out from the left, and passengers opening car doors without looking. It really depends on where you're cycing.

I don't find the assistace a waste of time though. It helps me greatly up hills and into headwinds. It also enables me to acclerate much faster and gives me much greater confidence and safety at road junctions.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,789
30,369
Is 20 mph too fast, a 100m sprinter goes quicker.
The 100 metre spinter is operating in a reserved safe space, but the few irresponsible cyclists often use shared footpaths and the like, an important difference. It should be remembered that e-bikes are permitted as a way of giving help to enable cycling to continue for those challenged by terrain or personal circumstances. They are not a way of enabling the masses to perform as fully fit sport cyclists.

Switzerland (outside the EU) and Germany (inside the EU) both have a separate 20 mph e-bike class which requires helmets to be worn and third party insurance, but no taxation or number plates.

We are entitled to that as well, since by law, any citizen of a member state of the EU is entitled to any benefit any other EU citizen enjoys. The problem is that we cannot take advantage of that until the UK government enacts the necessary orders to permit the higher speed bikes as a vehicle class and enable insurance companies to provide the necessary policies.

The chances of us forcing that are vanishingly small, but if anyone cares to undertake the long process of first trying through our government and eventually appealing to Europe when they refuse or prevaricate, feel free. It's a process that will take at least three years and could take longer on past evidence, and could still fail at the end with our government winning an opt out for some specific UK reason. That's very likely given the nature of our crowded island and our often very narrow cyclepaths etc.
.
 
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look what difference 5mph above the legal limit makes!

The following articles are about pedicabs that were able to do 20mph instead of 15mph - just look at the furore this has caused and the damage to the image of the industry because of a few idiots!!

The point I am making here is that NOBODY likes this 15mph limit, especially those of us with interests in bikes for commercial purposes. But, it is one of the rulings that seperates electrically assisted bicycles from mopeds. And, if we have too many people blatantly flouting this law, then the legislation will become even MORE restrictive (like Japan), which in turn will put more people off E-bikes, which nobody on this forum would want.

I bet your wondering how the Pedicab articles below applies to your original posting. Well Jake, it is the fact that above 15mph you are riding an unregistered motor vehicle pure and simple and you are likely to be done if caught. Hit someone with your unregistered, unliscensed and uninsured vehicle and they'll throw the book at you, but just for good measure (your a journalist so you will understand this) the media in a height of hysteria will tarnish the rest of us with the same brush!

Also - by law, the size (wattage) of your motor must be clearly shown on the motor body, so if you simply rip/scratch this off, then you can be done - think of it like a car driving around without its' number plates showing.

Oh, and if you think that Plod hasn't got a clue, then think again. Cycle Plods are rapidly growing in number all over the country to the extent that they even have a semi dedicated site and ALL the ones that I have met, know about 'E-bikes' - check out their site here: Home

Rickshaws impounded -
According to this post on the Rickshaw Forum London Police impound 20x rickshaws - Rickshawforum.com - Talk about Rickshaws & Pedicabs 20 pedicabs were recently impounded by London Police for using electric assist on a vehicle weighing over 60 kg - this is outside the legal definition of an electric-assist bike, so full registration etc should be required. The BBC coverage BBC NEWS | England | London | Crackdown on 'souped-up pedicabs' has more details. Generally the move was supported by responsible pedicab operators in the city.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,789
30,369
Oh, and if you think that Plod hasn't got a clue, then think again. Cycle Plods are rapidly growing in number all over the country to the extent that they even have a semi dedicated site and ALL the ones that I have met, know about 'E-bikes' - check out their site here: Home
Not only that, many cycle Plods are E-biking plods now, and they will certainly know the law on them.

See though my post above made at the same time as MonVal Electra, concerning a 20 mph intermediate class.
.
 

dodgyal

Pedelecer
Jul 16, 2008
50
0
Should a bike or e-bike be involved in a serious accident or even death there are other things you should think about.

A scene investigator will carefully check the bike to make sure it was road worthy and road legal.
Your life insurance and other insurances me be void
You may be in court faced with numerous charges
Your family may have a stigma attached after you kill someone on your illegal and unfit "motor-bike"

But I too still think 15mph is a little slow and agree a new classification between moped and e-bike should be created that deals with the legal, age and responsibility issues. It will be interesting when in a few years e-bikes are as common as bikes.
 

The Maestro

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2008
296
0
So we've decided that e-bikes should only be of use to the old, infirm or lazy police. To people of even very average fitness you would have to live in a very hilly or windy area for a legal one being any use.

If these bikes really are only to allow 'challenged' people to continue cycling we really are missing a very big trick in terms of getting ordinary people cycling and realising the benefits of lower congestion, pollution and huge health benefits.
 

The Maestro

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2008
296
0
A scene investigator will carefully check the bike to make sure it was road worthy and road legal.
Your life insurance and other insurances me be void
You may be in court faced with numerous charges
Your family may have a stigma attached after you kill someone on your illegal and unfit "motor-bike"
Almost no-one is killed by cyclists. Your chances of killing or injuring a 3rd party even on a massively bigger, faster and heavier motorbike is vastly lower than driving a car. Personally I couldn't care less about the law, surely what's more important is the risk of injury to 3rd parties based on your chosen form of transport. How can this country be so screwed up that people can get prosecuted and criminalised for doing something that carries FAR less risk than what millions of people (including me) do every day - driving a car..

If someone's dead then insurance doesn't do them a hell of a lot of good - best to encourage people to use a form of transport thats less likely to result in that even if its not insured!

BTW. I'm not nocking car drivers, they are pretty much essential for many journeys
 
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How can this country be so screwed up that people can get prosecuted and criminalised for doing something that carries FAR less risk than what millions of people (including me) do every day - driving a car..

....Easily, As E-bikers, we are different and we attract alot of attention, so everthing we do gets noticed.

The Pedicab article I put in my post earlier, is an example of different and attention grabbing
 

Barnowl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 18, 2008
954
1
- best to encourage people to use a form of transport thats less likely to result in that even if its not insured!
I agree but an expensive bike (and it would be) that assists up to 20MPH rather than 15MPH isn't going to make much difference. It's the cost and the dangers to themselves that puts most people off.