Where is "Off road" ?

[10mph]

Its like a boat manufacturer supplying a boat that is not legal once you put it in the water !

I look at it like this. Once you press the speed destrict button, you turn your "Road-Legal" pedelec into an electric motorbike/scooter/moped (not sure which). These all require licensing, MOT, driving licence for use on roads. There are also laws that apply to off road use of these all motor bikes. If it is private land, and NOT a public right of way, footpath, or other road for the public, you are OK if the landowner is agreeing to you doing it. If not it is a trespass and may be it could also fall foul of the 15 yards from a highway law.

So unless you can get permission to use some private race track for motor bikes, I cant imagine anywhere a speed derestrict button would be both legal and useful. May be on a beach somewhere, but even if the local council does not have bye-laws to stop motor bikes, aren't they crown property and you could have the Queen after you.

I can't imagine anyone who sells bikes with a derestrict button coming forward and putting this up front in their advertising materials. Surely they would not get sales. However, if they offered to get a license for the bike .... would it be competitive with a motor bike?

I am only a 10mph rider and I am nearly always happy with speeds below 15mph, but I realise I might not feel the same if I was 20 or 30 years younger and wanted to use my bike for rapid daily commuting. But if that was the position, the obvious option would be to buy some light motor bike, or else license the e-bike if I was wedded to pedalling and use of an electric motor.

 

[JuicyBike]

All our bikes can be used legally.

We now provide a button to switch off the throttle, which can power the rider to 15.5 mph, without pedalling.
When BEBA met the DofT last month members attending were given the impression that the usefulness of having a full-speed throttle was being reconsidered. BEBA stressed having a throttle was extremely helpful in many situations, and the department of transport officers attending seemed to state that nothing was yet set in stone regarding outlawing such assistance.
We have still added a throttle switch though to ensure our owners are always legal and to improve safety when not astride the bike.

Hope that helps.

 

[eTim]

All our bikes can be used legally.

We now provide a button to switch off the throttle, which can power the rider to 15.5 mph, without pedalling.
When BEBA met the DofT last month members attending were given the impression that the usefulness of having a full-speed throttle was being reconsidered. BEBA stressed having a throttle was extremely helpful in many situations, and the department of transport officers attending seemed to state that nothing was yet set in stone regarding outlawing such assistance.
We have still added a throttle switch though to ensure our owners are always legal and to improve safety when not astride the bike.

Hope that helps.

I'm not sure that this helps this thread - the marketing term often used by electric bike sellers is that an 'off-road' system (button/throttle/whatever) is available to make the vehicle go faster than the legal 15.5mph (25kph) and can therefore be used in an off-road situation and this is where the legality is called into question when confused with the 'off-road' term.

The off-road definition here should be clarified as 'the bike is only legal when the off-road system is used when the bike is used on private land and not on the public highway. If the off-road system is used when on the public highway which can include byways, tracks, paths, BOATS, RUPPS etc even if off the metalled road, i.e. 'off-road' then the bike will be used illegally'

The marketeers continue to confuse ordinary punters about this issue so that a customer may ride away with the impression that they would be using their ebike legally when employing the off-road system in an 'off-road' setting when in fact they are still on the highway and governed by road law.

A bit long winded that one

 

[Scimitar]

No Dave, definitely as said for it affected my motorbike use at the time in the 1950s.

Gun laws wouldn't permit a shotgun to be fired so close to the road, even air rifles have a far more restricted distance from the centre of the nearest public road. I can only use mine legally at the rear of my property, but fortunately the squirrels co-operate.

That's what I meant, in a roundabout way.
Landowner not allowed to shoot within 50ft (or so) of a highway, motorists not allowed to go further than that off a highway.
A neat synchronicity that avoids landowner shootings of picnickers and e-bikers

 

[eTim]

If it is private land, and NOT a public right of way, footpath, or other road for the public, you are OK if the landowner is agreeing to you doing it. If not it is a trespass and may be it could also fall foul of the 15 yards from a highway law.

So unless you can get permission to use some private race track for motor bikes, I cant imagine anywhere a speed derestrict button would be both legal and useful. May be on a beach somewhere, but even if the local council does not have bye-laws to stop motor bikes, aren't they crown property and you could have the Queen after you.

I'm not sure that the question of permission comes into it, trespass is a civil offence, therefore a landowner would need to sue you for trespass which, I believe, only really stands up in court if there are aggravating circumstances (damage, violence etc).

You are only trespassing once the landowner has asked you to leave and you may leave by taking the most practicable route, so in reality, you are not commiting any offence, and you would only be commiting an offence once the landowner has asked you to leave and then you aggravate that by refusing and getting aggressive and providing there are witnesses to back up the landowners claims, you may be dragged to court.

In effect the landowner is almost powerless to a certain degree. All the signs that say Trespassers will be prosecuted are just private individuals attempting to keep the public away, around Poole Harbour there are tracks and byways with these signs where there is a public right of way, they can be ignored, it is the owners of houses attempting to stop the public from legitimately disturbing their peace (presumably).

So an 'off-road' button could be used anywhere that you are not on the public highway ie crossing farmers fields (just don't cause any damage), if you have permission so much the better.

 

[Scimitar]

So an 'off-road' button could be used anywhere that you are not on the public highway ie crossing farmers fields (just don't cause any damage), if you have permission so much the better.

It's quite simple - all the bike dealers with their 'off-road' buttons are seeking customers in Scotland, where there is no law of trespass as commonly understood in England. So much more civilised, I always thought.

 

[flecc]

So an 'off-road' button could be used anywhere that you are not on the public highway ie crossing farmers fields (just don't cause any damage), if you have permission so much the better.

But still illegal if it takes the rider more than the legal distance from the road for a motor vehicle, which it will invariably do. To make that use legal requires the landowner's express prior permission. As I mentioned above, the moment an e-bike fails to conform to the EAPC regulations it automatically becomes a motor vehicle, subject to all those laws.

An interesting side issue has arisen with the SORN regulations and the latest change in law. An e-bike which becomes a motor vehicle by virtue of not according to e-bike law, if not registered and taxed should have a SORN declaration. If it does not have a SORN declaration, it must now be insured for third party risks.

 

[tillson]

Some offences with a non-compliant ebike can be committed at any place to which the public have access. The definition of a place to which the public have access is very broad and includes some very unlikely situations.

The bottom line is that there aren't many places where you can use them. The places where you can use a non-compliant bike are few and you would probably have no practical use for doing so anyway.

The people who sell them do so knowing full well what they are doing and actively market the illegality of their product as a plus point. They usually throw in a glib, "for off road use only" somewhere in the advert, as a thinly disguised attempt to rid themselves of responsibility. Banbury Frank's bikes are an example of this tactic at work.

 

[flecc]

Our posts crossed at 15.45 Tillson, see above.

 

[tillson]

So an 'off-road' button could be used anywhere that you are not on the public highway ie crossing farmers fields (just don't cause any damage), if you have permission so much the better.

It can still be illegal even if you are on private land and the land owner is happy for you to be there.

Because a non-compliant bike becomes a motor vehicle, there are certain offences (I can't remember which ones without looking them up, but there are some common offences) for which the vehicle only has to be used at a place to which the public has access. The access can be either on payment or implied.

The implied access bit is the catch all and there is quite a bit of case law surrounding it. An open gate to a private field and evidence of people using it as an unofficial cut through (trespassing) would be an implied access. Therefore, even if the owner of the field gave you permission to ride your bicycle around the field, because it is a place to which the public has access, certain offences can be committed if the bike is non-compliant.

There was a company allowing people to ride a Segway around Chatsworth House Show last year. I think certain Segways will be classed as Motor Vehicles or Mechanically Propelled Vehicles. This was taking place a private estate, but it was in a place to which the public had access on payment, so some offences were probably complete there.

 

[Mussels]

There was a company allowing people to ride a Segway around Chatsworth House Show last year. I think certain Segways will be classed as Motor Vehicles or Mechanically Propelled Vehicles. This was taking place a private estate, but it was in a place to which the public had access on payment, so some offences were probably complete there.

I think they are all classed as motor vehicles, so are these:

 

[tillson]

I think they are all classed as motor vehicles, so are these:

That one will be a Mechanically Propelled Vehicle Mussels, not a Motor Vehicle. A Motor Vehicle is any vehicle which is intended or adapted for use on a road, the rest are Mechanically Propelled vehicles.

A non compliant ebike on the otherhand will be a motor vehicle because that is intended or adapted for use on a road.

On the plus side, if you can fit in it, you will still be ok to drive that buggy round your garden. Just remember to keep the gate closed though.

 

[hallii]

Interesting thread, not all that long ago I used to have a Land Rover and go "Green Laning" (I still have a Land Rover but it was made in 1955 and stays dry). Anyway, I was a member of the Green Lane Association and learned a great deal about what is and is not a public road. What I learned is that some roads are designated public roads and some, whilst being in fact and common usage a public road were never designated as such.

The only way to get some idea is to go to the Local Authority covering the area and ask to see the "Definative Map". It will be inaccurate and incomplete, but nonetheless it is a legal document and can be used for legal purposes to prove or disprove a right of way.

So, if it's not on the definitive map as a public road, it's not a public road, but it might be a footpath, they are marked as well.

I have lost count of the many tracks without any legal status that I have driven, a good rule is if the locals drive it so can you, and it may not be a public road, so Mr Plod can't touch you.

Watch out for anyone wearing a bobble hat and red socks and carrying a hiking stick, they have been known to attack!

Geoff

 

[Jon]

Interesting to the point of who cares sorry guys and im ready for the flack but seriously is this all you have to talk about?

By the sounds of it all the doo gooders on here have legal bikes so therefore you have no issues, i also get the impression most people on here are on the frail side so again wouldnt be using "off road" or anything that would shake them too much plus a lot of your bikes wouldnt take it. Ive said before the Police have got more serious stuff to address like dirt bikes tearing up grounds at over 60mph rather than worrying if some quiet ebike is going more than 15mph. If it was doing 60mph thats different.

I was up the country park i use this morning before work and bumped into a Police officer and Fire Officer on none powered bikes (not literal and they were checking out recent fire out brakes) and they didnt have an issue with electric bikes using the hills and lanes over the country park. They had more issue with price and thought that was criminal lol.

Finally if the DofT enforced removal of throttle you can kiss goodbye to any main streaming of ebikes, trust me when i say the younger ones wont pick it up and wont be interested as you can move more delicately on throttle than you can on pedal assist. They like the idea of throttle and pedal you oldies may not be bothered but your not the future of this industry the kids are like it or not thats how it is. And yes the light motorbike is quicker than a ebike last longer with fuel and can refuel quicker etc but thats not the point and never will be for some just like the vinyl vs cd thing. CD are far better quality and out perform vinyl in every way but yet some people still prefer the rough natural sound of a vinyl record. Some people will just prefer the feel of an ebike over a motorbike and if you dont get it well that just means your old and ive noticed with some makes them sound out of touch and cynical too. Shame really.

 

[flecc]

Interesting to the point of who cares sorry guys and im ready for the flack but seriously is this all you have to talk about?

By the sounds of it all the doo gooders on here have legal bikes so therefore you have no issues, i also get the impression most people on here are on the frail side so again wouldnt be using "off road" or anything that would shake them too much plus a lot of your bikes wouldnt take it. Ive said before the Police have got more serious stuff to address like dirt bikes tearing up grounds at over 60mph rather than worrying if some quiet ebike is going more than 15mph. If it was doing 60mph thats different.

I was up the country park i use this morning before work and bumped into a Police officer and Fire Officer on none powered bikes (not literal and they were checking out recent fire out brakes) and they didnt have an issue with electric bikes using the hills and lanes over the country park. They had more issue with price and thought that was criminal lol.

Finally if the DofT enforced removal of throttle you can kiss goodbye to any main streaming of ebikes, trust me when i say the younger ones wont pick it up and wont be interested as you can move more delicately on throttle than you can on pedal assist. They like the idea of throttle and pedal you oldies may not be bothered but your not the future of this industry the kids are like it or not thats how it is. And yes the light motorbike is quicker than a ebike last longer with fuel and can refuel quicker etc but thats not the point and never will be for some just like the vinyl vs cd thing. CD are far better quality and out perform vinyl in every way but yet some people still prefer the rough natural sound of a vinyl record. Some people will just prefer the feel of an ebike over a motorbike and if you dont get it well that just means your old and ive noticed with some makes them sound out of touch and cynical too. Shame really.

Where's all the bitterness coming from Jon? Many of us in here, including me, sold motorbikes to get into e-bikes, I did the switch in 2003 at the age of 67 and I know some of the others were also older. And if you saw the state of the bridle paths I ride you'd know I also do offroad as do many older members, but that doesn't mean I have to do it at over 15 mph does it?

It's up to others, including the young, what they do, I'm not their police officer or guardian. I regularly see motorbikes and scooters on bridle paths and just step or move aside for them, on one occasion even helping one youngster lift his out of a very deep rut he was stuck in. I also regularly see cyclists on the trails in the local nature reserve where they are banned but I'm pleased to see that since they are doing no harm.

But equally I don't see any harm in members knowing their legal status either way, so where I know it, I post both the downsides and upsides of the law. That way they are best placed to deal with any misguided little hitler who takes upon themselves to challenge a member out riding.

The throttle issue is a red herring, they are legal here at present and may yet be into the future, I don't mind either way. It's an issue out our hands, we've sent in our appeals to keep throttles to the DfT when we had a chance recently, and many supporting that were older members who need them. Regarding your remark about being frail, surely it's the frail who need throttles the most so that they can rest from pedalling.

Trying to start a generation war when there is no such divide won't do much to promote e-biking, and isn't that what we all want?

 

[10mph]

I was up the country park i use this morning before work

Would that be Parkhall where they have the MTB races?

 

[NRG]

I think throttles are a safety feature, I'm not frail or infirmed but appreciate the assistance a throttle gives to the rider in pulling out or setting off in heavy traffic conditions. It gets you up to speed quickly and avoids close encounters with the surrounding traffic...

 

[Blew it]

.....as you can move more delicately on throttle than you can on pedal assist. They like the idea of throttle and pedal you oldies may not be bothered but your not the future of this industry....

Jon,

That is incorrect, I recently joined in with a local social bike ride, the other nine bikes were all unpowered. The machine I chose to ride was a Panasonic powered machine, for the simple reason it is the most 'bike-like' machine that I own. The difference is, the Panasonic system effectively levelled the playing field, not only was I able to keep up with riders thirty years my junior, but also left the entire group struggling with a sudden upslope which I climbed with ease.

Is there any advantage in building an age related 'Berlin Wall' amongst E-bikers, I think not!. We can all learn from, and enjoy each others company, please don't spoil it by counting the number of candles on our birthday cakes as a membership requirement to your 'club'.

 

[Jon]

Parkhall does have races but im not sure how well attended they are.

As for your comment flecc it is not bitterness its jsut boredom this constant speed knocking and legality issue its getting incredibly tedious and tiresome there has been that many discussions on this topic over the last 2 months or so you could start its own fan club or child board, and, then whenever someone posts their comment in favour they are shot down being accused of law breakers, spoiling it for the rest blah blah blah, that then opens another legal discussion. From reading posts it looks like there many people on here that have not had much to do with the Police and the law in terms of warnings cautions etc. If thats wrong then i apologise for the assumption, but if im right that is whats fuelling this circle of discussion. Can people really not think of anything more interesting to talk about? The Police have other things to think about whether your bike is doing a couple of MPH more than it should be.

Cycling has somewhat of hoity stigma attached to it around here and it seems like this stereotype is reinforced more than its challenged on this site.

 

[Jon]

Jon,

That is incorrect, I recently joined in with a local social bike ride, the other nine bikes were all unpowered. The machine I chose to ride was a Panasonic powered machine, for the simple reason it is the most 'bike-like' machine that I own. The difference is, the Panasonic system effectively levelled the playing field, not only was I able to keep up with riders thirty years my junior, but also left the entire group struggling with a sudden upslope which I climbed with ease.

Is there any advantage in building an age related 'Berlin Wall' amongst E-bikers, I think not!. We can all learn from, and enjoy each others company, please don't spoil it by counting the number of candles on our birthday cakes as a membership requirement to your 'club'.

People only learn from each other when it suits them. And i am right a throttle enables more delicate riding on technical basis while going off road