Which Bike Advice Please

[flecc]

Thanks for that explanation, I am not convinced that I could put in 50% effort for the duration of a trail/track ride around rutland water as an example lets say 27 miles at the moment.

I think from what you are explaining to me it would be wise for me to have a hub motor bicycle and then if a hill beats me I could walk along side the bike pulling itself up on the throttle if that sounds feasable.

The Izip I was referring to has the batteries inside the front down tube and is only 24v 9Ah whereas I would think I need the 36 Volt 14Ah of the Wisper or similar to do the job I need it to do.

I agree that the 27 miles could be a problem, from the range point of view alone since many bikes would not make that without considerable rider input, though the Wisper 905se should with it's 14 Ah battery.

The choice of a hub motor bike is definitely the most sensible if you are prepared to walk alongside on throttle on steepest sections. Many of us do this at times and it's entirely practical, and I do it myself often when walking my bikes up a very steep bank to the front of my home. I'm assured that the Kalkhoff bikes will soon have a throttle option, the very similar BikeTech models with the Panasonic motor already having a walk alongside throttle.

The Izip you mention is the same as the one I meant to all intents, just the battery position changed, and my remarks before apply. I agree it wouldn't be the ideal bike for you, and I see the integral frame battery as a big disadvantage. Neat it might be, but you can't carry a spare for longer trips or for when the range declines as the battery ages, so not practical.
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[PED-AL]

I wonder what your view is on the 2009 Agattu with the front hub drive and 8 speed rear hub ?. Is the extra unsprung weight a big issue if the forks are good ?. I suppose it would allow for more power to be used without fear of putting large ammounts of load on the rear hub as a rear drive does. I think I read somewhere that the power from the crank drive is limited as both pedal and crank power could put excessive load on the hub. I suppose you win in one area and loose on another as usual.

 

[flecc]

I don't have a view on that new model as I know little of it yet Allan, we will have to wait for some experience or a UK review. Given the Japanese source, it could be quite low powered again, the norm in Japan due to their very restrictive e-bike laws.

I prefer rear hub motors as bikes are more stable and handle better with that weight distribution, but that does mean using weaker multi-sprocket freewheels instead of derailleur cassettes to provide rider gears. Front hub motors avoid that problem and also allow hub gears instead in the rear wheel.

Chain drive central motors do have the power limitations imposed by what bicycle transmission will stand, but that's partly offset by the drive through the gears ability ensuring optimum use of the limited power.

As you say, it's always a set of compromises when a bicycle is combined with a motor drive, due to the opposing design factors involved.
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[PED-AL]

Yes the rear sprockets on a rear hub drive are not so well supported by their bearings are they ! MMM I think I have enough information now to leave you in peace for a while.
You pay your money and take your choice and there are reasons and arguments for and against all the ideas as with most things. I thank you flecc for your help and guidance and will post when I have tried the 905se.

 

[flecc]

A pleasure Allan. I will be interested in your impression of the 905se when you've had a chance to assess it.
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[wotwozere]

Hi ped al

What ever you do , do not got an izip , that popped my ebike cherry and I would never go back for another ended up walking miles.

thx

bob

 

[PED-AL]

IZIP has been crossed off the list, in fact the list only has a couple of bikes left on it. I need to get a look at and ride the Wisper 905 Sport which means a trip to Cambridge in the New year unless anyone knows of one closer to Oakham ??. I am also waiting for some info from David at Wisper.

 

[andyh2]

Hi Ped Al,

Did a long piece yesterday, but it seems to have gone astray. So I'll try again.

I've a step-thru (better for child seat) Agattu and have made some changes / upgrades that might interest you.

Continental Twister 700 x 37 tyres. Not sure yet about puncture protection, but much better than standard tyres off road. I think that 1.8"-1.9" tyres would fit and improve off road performance more, but I'd have to use mtb clip on guards and let go the mudguards which would be not so good for commuting.

Thudbuster seatpost is very adjustable for rider weight and level of responsiveness wanted. The post goes down and back on impact which maintains seat to pedal length, rather than straight up and down.

8 speed Alfine hub with thumbshift rather than twist grip. I'm sure the thumbshifter would also be retrofittable to Nexus 8 speed. The extra range of the 8 speed is good. The Alfine can shift underload whereas the 7 speed always required backing off the pressure.

To reduce off road rattles I've removed skirt guards and I use a strap to keep the battery in place without rattling.

I'm seriously considering a disc dyno hub front wheel. I like having lights always available and the I've found the avid BB7 cable disc brakes very effective.

The ground clearance is obviously not as good as an mtb but that aside I've been really impressed with it's ability on steep off road tracks. The electric assist means all pedalling can be seated which is great for traction. The central weight of the motor and battery along with the extended wheelbase are great for stability and balance. I do take it slow on the downhills as it is a considerable investment and leave the speed thrills to road and full on mtb.

The motor through the gears gives wonderful climbing ability with a choice of getting up quicker with a fair amount of effort or sedately at an easy pace in low gear.

Steep off road tracks use the battery power quickly. With a little restraint and original 7 speed gearing I could go 30 miles on the road. Geared up 7 speed on max setting continuosly brings that down to 20 miles. Off road steep tracks brings that down to 15 miles! I find it more helpful to think in terms of time and I reckon if using max setting continuously on around one and half hours of riding tobe the limit. I may well get a second battery to extend range.

It's been great to find that something bought as a practical commuter is turning out to be so capable for fun.

 

[PED-AL]

Thanks for the information.
The Agattu that I tested was a step through and I must say it was very convenient and made it much safer and less likely for me to slip when getting on and off the bike. If you have read the first post you will see that I have a disability.
My biggest concern with the Agattu is the need to pedal unless freewheeling as I would not get a rest if needed without stopping (not out of the question as it is leisure riding only).
Off road puncture resistant tyres would be a must whateaver bike I buy and I think 37mm would be plenty wide enough as I would not wish to increase the drag from a battery life point of view.
A second battery would be a safeguard for me as I would think that I would be using high power more than a normal rider, It would be nice if Kalkhoff came up with a larger capacity battery as I am sure there is room for one.
The 8 speed hub sounds a really good modification to give the wider gear range that the agattu lacks ( what is the cost of such a hub and where would be the best place to buy ).
The thumb shifter would be good as I did not get on with the twist shift (artheritis in the thumbs).
Anti rattle straps would also be a must as I hate rattles.
I will look into the thud buster seat post.
I would be taking it very steady as I could not take a big fall so the standard brakes would be fine for me.
You have got me swaying towards the agattu again as I really do like the quality and I am only 25 miles from 50 cycles !!
Thanks Allan

 

[stevew]

If you like the Wisper and want a step through why not look at the 705SE ?
We have one as a pool bike at work and it looks really good. I will be borrowing it this W/E so if you want to know more let me know. It seems to have all the same running gear as the 905 except the battery is a little smaller.

 

[andyh2]

Allan I was lucky and found a s/h 50 miles only Alfine wheel with trigger twist shifters for £125 (probably £250 worth new) and the Thudbuster s/h for £45 (normally £100+).

It doesn't seem that easy to find the Alfine / nexus 8 hubs and if going new you'd probably be as well going for the tasman which is same as agattu, but with 8 speed hub and hydraulic rim brakes. I think some people go to German suppliers where hub gear parts are more popular.

Petra Cycles - Bicycle Shop, Parts Components and Accesories seem to have some nexus stuff including a trigger shifter for 7 speed (£17) so that could still make the 7 speed an option for you. They also do the 8 speed trigger shifter for £21.

Also you might want to look at this link to 50cycles forum
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It seems there is already wired in the connectors for an Agattu throttle. This apparantly is limited to walking pace, but could be useful all the same. No idea what cost of throttle parts are, but 50c should know. One thing I like about the Panasonic system is that whilst it is a pedelec, when setting off it gives a nice hefty push as you first start to turn the pedals. This is a great help on steep hills and also when heavily loaded as it helps get to balance speed swiftly.

It will also be worth checking on the relative robustness of the hub motor vs crank motor systems for off road use. My expectation is that as the hub motors have wires coming from axle that's a potential area of vulnerability. Of course with the crank system care is needed not to exceed the ground clearance limitations. Perhaps someone else with actual experience of both can chip in on this.

I'm in Scotland and was happy buying from 50cycles. I'd be happier if they were only 25 miles away though

I should say I am very enthusiastic about my Agattu, but my experience of other e-bikes is limited to a short time on a Cytronex Trek, which is very good at what it's meant to do, but not for me.

 

[PED-AL]

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that I will buy a Kalkhoff Agattu and a Wisper 905 or 705 . I will evaluate them by riding around Rutland Water which is on my doorstep and is the type of riding I will be doing. I will then sell the one that is second best to me. There is nothing like owning an item for a month or so to see if it suits, besides that I would always be wondering how the other one would have performed which ever one I bought. I would be interested in your views on the Wisper 705 after you have tried it. - Thanks Allan

 

[JamesC]

Hi Allan
I would endorse the thought of the Kalkhoff Agattu, together with the merits of the 8 speed hub.

In my case, I own a Mk1 eZee Torq and then more recently, a Kalkhoff ProConnect (both of which have been round Rutland Water on several occasions).

I came to ebiking in Jan 2007, needing to find a way into exercise in amongst various bypass operations to overcome blood circulation issues.

The Mk1 Torq with its front wheel hub motor was a good startpoint, well documented in this forum for being highly geared and benefitting from changes to the chainwheel and cassette to cope with any form of hill.

The Mk2 Torq (front wheel drive) and the Wisper (rear wheel drive) improved on the gearing and added front suspension.


With limited power in my legs, and a strong desire to be able to cycle in more hilly places, I considered several options before going for the Panasonic type of drive through the gears. In particular, the ProConnect with the wider range of the 8 speed hub.

There is no doubt in my mind that less powerful riders should take this route.

1. It is often the case that less powerful riders will NOT be able to manage the high cadences (leg speeds) of fit cyclists. The panasonic drive works with you in the 40 - 60 RPM bracket, doing approx 50% of the work.

2. At the very moment that you think the legs are tiring, the panasonic drive sees this as the time to provide some extra help.
Hub motors tend to work the other way round - point them up a steep hill and they begin to ask the rider to do more work to assist and can on occasion leave the rider in the lurch.

Correctly, you make the point that you may need the occasional rest to recover, and you wonder whether the panasonic will allow this.

I wondered exactly the same, because poor circulation in the legs does not carry sufficient oxygen to the muscles to keep up a consistent work rate.

What I discovered with the Kalkhoff was quite surprising - a 30 mile ride averaging 14 mph on completely flat ground in the fens is quite testing because there is no moment to rest the legs for recovery.

Compared to a 30 mile ride averaging nearer 15 mph in the Oakham/Uppingham area where the rolling countryside allows assistance on the uphill bits, and recovery on the downhill bits which I found easier.

I think that you are right to go for a Step Through bike - it can avoid issues if the legs become too tired. I have a crossbar, but opted for a small frame and high saddle that I can negotiate OK. A Step Through frame allows a more correct fit, without having to think too much about getting on and off.

I would confirm AndyH's recommendation on the 8 speed hub - you can use either the Shimano Alfine or the latest Shimano Nexus Premium hub.

I can recommend the SG-8R36 Nexus hub for 36 spoke wheels which should be available in the UK any time now.

I bought this kit from Rose in Germany comprising the 8 speed hub, 19T sprocket, twist shifter, cable and cassette (also includes non rotation washers that are not right for the Kalkhoff frame).

It is an ideal route for an Agattu owner to convert to the best Shimano 8 speed hub - a ProConnect owner is likely happy with the lever shifter.

Like AndyH, I have added a little bit of extra comfort with the Thudbuster seat post - I opted for the ST (Short Travel) version which is still quite firm.


I will send you a PM if you would like to meet up sometime at Rutland Water.

James

 

[PED-AL]

Thanks James and Andy for your advice.
I have this afternoon purchased a Kalkhoff Agattu step through and hopefully will be able to try it for a few miles over the next week or so if we get a nice day or two.
I will try it as standard to start with but I do like the idea of the 8 Speed SG8R 36 hub as I believe it is the precision bearing model and would be supplied with a thumb shifter.
The Thudbuster seat post will no doubt be the first mod as maximum comfort is top of the list and I suppose the longer travel one would be best for my requirements. I will manage with the twist shift until I decide about the hub. You struck lucky Andy with your Hub and wheel Bargain !!.
I like the spec of the Tasman but cannot stand that awfull hearing aid beige colour.
I will still look at the Wisper in the spring as I suppose it is like Motorcycles you need different ones for different types of rides (That is the excuse I use for Cars and motorcycles).
The Wisper may be better for the Flat rides as you explained as i would be able to get a rest but we will see how the Agattu goes first. The more toys I can have in my Garage the better for me as I can sit on my wheely chair and fiddle, polish and modify instead of watching the Box.
I have emailed david at Wisper a couple of times about specifications and Photo's without reply.
Does anyone know if the Wisper assistance works gradually like the panasonic or is it all or nothing like the Powacycle Salisbury.
Which reminds me --- I now have a Powercycle Salisbury for sale That has only covered 15 miles maximum --- looks like new and I have the box and packing . I will put it on the Classifieds ads later.
Thanks again - Allan

 

[Mussels]

Does anyone know if the Wisper assistance works gradually like the panasonic or is it all or nothing like the Powacycle Salisbury.

It is meant to be gradual but feels to me like it is all or nothing, it suits me but may not be great if you need to control the assistance at slow speeds.

 

[PED-AL]

Hello Mussels
That is interesting information, I will need to be able to potter along at a low speed with assistance sometimes so it looks like the Wisper would not be suitable for me after all. - Thanks Allan

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Assistance

Hi Allan, sorry not to have replied, I don't seem to have received your emails or they went to my spam filter and have been deleted, please try david@wisperbike.com

Re the current Wispers, the assistance comes in a 80% straight away and you can increase the power to 100% by twisting the throttle. The new batch coming in next week have a choice of 20% or 80% from a control on the handle bars (Hi and Lo). If you choose to use the Lo setting the assistance is very slight at first, you can increase the assistance from 20% all the way to 100% in 1% increments by using the throttle.

All the best David

 

[PED-AL]

Thanks for the reply David, the emals were sent to david@wisperbike.com and the email address on the web site. I have just re sent it to you now.
I am still interested in the 905 even though I have just bought an agattu as I seldom have just one of any toy be it car, motorcycle or Bicycle.

 

[andyh2]

Good luck with it Allan, hope it works well for you.

 

[PED-AL]

Good luck with it Allan, hope it works well for you.

Thanks Andy - I appreciate your help.
The 7 speed shifters are out of stock at the moment at Petra but as I mentioned I am going to give it a try in standard trim before I spend/modify it, well - perhaps I would try a thudbuster post if I can get one at a reasonable price. - Allan