Which Front Hub Motor?

[Cadence]

I recently bought this on ebay to convert for my wife:-



It was only £35.00 and is in excellent condition. Apart from adjusting the brakes it is good to go but I will probably replace the slightly rusty chain.
I have a Yosepower Lishui C500 display and 15A controller integrated into a slider mount for a Hailong HL 36v/13Ah battery. To my great surprise I've discovered that, with an adaptor, the battery slider will fit on the downtube and there is enough space in the triangle for the battery. For this reason I am limited to 36v 15A with what I use to convert the bilke.
The original quick release rear wheel does not slide out very easily and I've measued the OLD distance of the dropouts at 132mm. Also the dropouts, along with the deraileur hanger are very shallow with threaded holes for rack and mudguard close to them. There was a recent photo posted somewhere here of a Carrera bike with similar dropouts. I don't fancy risking filing and spreading these aluminium dropouts - even if I use torque arms.
The steel fork has substantial dropouts, so I'm thinking of going with a front hub, but which one?

Top Bike Kit sell the AKM100 250w and AKM100H 350w - both the same size but 350w claimed as "30% more powerful" ( I have got some 250w stickers ) . They are both available as 201rpm or 324rpm.
BMS Battery sell the Q100 and Q100H, which appear to be own brand versions of the above, but these are also available with 260rpm.
Then there is the MXUS XF07 250w, available from PWS Power via ebay. This quoted as 270rpm.
So, bearing in mind that the controller and display I have came from a Yosepower kit that was limited to a fixed 15.5mph top speed, which motor will give the best climbing ability?
I think that 324rpm is too fast and probably intended for smaller wheels. The Pendleton has 26". I'm leaning towards the AKM100H at 201rpm, but if I decide at a later date to fit another controller (say 17A) what max speed is it likely to be capable of? As I have two other bikes that take 36v HL batteries I don't think I'll ever want to overvolt it to 48v.
Are 260/270rpm motors a happy compromise, or just a "middle of the road" spec. ?
The XF07 is sightly bigger in diameter and weight than the others, but they are all about the same price. I realise that none of them will set the world alight in terms of performance, but for a bike used at modest speeds mostly on roads or cycle paths and up a few medium grade hills, which one should I choose?

 

[Benjahmin]

I feel your pain/confusion. Just been through all of this motor stuff in my thread 'Return to the bent'.
The 250/270rpm motors are the right ones for a 26" wheel if you want legal maximum speed.
I've just bought an AKM128h from Topbikekit. Like you I needed that legal speed in a 26", but they only did the 201 or 328.
So I bought a 328rpm 48v motor but will run it at 36v which will give around 250rpm.
In the thread I mentioned Tony from Whoosh posted an rpm/wheel size/tyre size table that you may find useful.
A motor cannot go faster than it's specified rpm no matter how much current you throw at it. This can only happen if you up the voltage. So, similarly, a 24v 201rpm motor will run at around 250rpm if run at 36v.

 

[Cadence]

Thanks for the quick reply @Benjahmin. I've just had a quick read of your thread and it is indeed confusing. I notice you said..

"So, I'm going to order a 48v 328rpm motor and run it at 36v to get 250rpm.
I'm assuming that running at the lower voltage it will need more current to get max rpm, so will a 22A T09s be enough?"

...and you got an affirmative response from @saneagle.
My problem is I am stuck with a 36v 15A controller so I can't up the current. It would seem from what you say (and looking at Tony's wheel size table) that my best bet is a 36v motor at around 250rpm? That looks like either of BMS Q100 250w. Q100H 350w. or MXUS XF07 250w.
Of course, she who will be using the bike has a much more demanding requirement - "I want a silver one!" Doh!

 

[saneagle]

A Q100/AKM100 runs fine at 15A. Current has no effect on max RPM. It only effects torque. 22 amps is too much for a Q100.

 

[Cadence]

A Q100/AKM100 runs fine at 15A. Current has no effect on max RPM. It only effects torque. 22 amps is too much for a Q100.

Thanks for the response - I must admit I was hoping you would give me some advice!
So, The Q100 is avilable with 260rpm, but AKM100 isn't. Am I right in thinking that 201rpm would be better at hillclimbing but 260rpm offers (potentially) higher top speed. if I ever fit a 17A controller would I be better going with a Q100H 350w at 260rpm? All running at 36v on 26" wheels.
None of the motors I've mentioned seem to be available in silver, but the MXUS XF07 250w
used to be. If I could find a good second hand one that might be the best compromise, but are they all 270rpm?

 

[saneagle]

Thanks for the response - I must admit I was hoping you would give me some advice!
So, The Q100 is avilable with 260rpm, but AKM100 isn't. Am I right in thinking that 201rpm would be better at hillclimbing but 260rpm offers (potentially) higher top speed. if I ever fit a 17A controller would I be better going with a Q100H 350w at 260rpm? All running at 36v on 26" wheels.
None of the motors I've mentioned seem to be available in silver, but the MXUS XF07 250w
used to be. If I could find a good second hand one that might be the best compromise, but are they all 270rpm?

Q100 and AKM100 are the same motor. Both come in 201 rpm, 260 rpm, 328 rpm, 36v and 48v if you can find them. There are also variations in the internal reduction ratios. The basic ones are around 8:1 and the H version is 12:1. The higher the reduction ratio, the more torque they can give. The 260 rpm Q100H is probably the same as the 328 rpm Q100 apart from the reduction ratio. When you say "better", what does "better" mean. The lower the rpm, the more efficient the motor is when slow climbing, so if you expect to be going up a lot of steep hills or riding around very slowly, 201 rpm would be more suitable. You choose the motor speed to match your modal riding speed. Motor max speed should be 1.3 x modal speed, which is why most bikes use 260 rpm for 15 mph modal speed.

Now that everyone is starting to worry about legality, 201 rpm might come back in favour. It's fine for shopping, trail riding, towing, carrying big loads, etc, but for a long commutes, the higher average speed of the 260 rpm one would be better.

 

[Cadence]

Thanks again for your thoughts. I'm thinking that the Q100H 260rpm (or the AKM100H, if I can find a 260rpm version) would be the best option. SWMBO will have to like black!

 

[Nealh]

Nothing stopping you using a rattle can for a silver finish.

 

[Cadence]

Back again!
Anyone following my posts on various threads will know that I still can't make my mind up on which front hub motor to go for.
Anyone have any comments or experience of this?
High quality 250w 36v Front E Bike Motor Hub, 9 pin waterproof connector Black | eBay
Made by Neways Electric (Suzhou) Electric Co Ltd. Anybody heard of them?
229rpm sounds a tad low, especially as it's listed as suitable for 12"-29" wheels (!), but might just be OK on 26"?
Max torque of 45NM looks respectable if believable.
The domed nuts look a bit poor and the tabs on the pressed steel washers look rather narrow.

 

[Sturmey]

I have both the yosepower 250 front (210 rpm/700/36v) and an xf07 front (270 rpm/26/36v). The Yosepower seems strong/reliable (and the controller runs cool) but it can be slow, particularly towards the second half of a journey as the battery volts drop.
The 270 rpm xf07 is certainly much faster but the controller can run very hot. For the last few months, I have been running this motor with a 9 mosfet 22A controller turned down to 16 Amps and its running great. The controller only barely get warm.
I am tempted to buy something like the xf15 below (285 rpm at 36v) so I can fully exploit my 22 amp controller.
https://www.pswpower.com/products/mxus-36v-250w-xf07-front-xf08-rear-freewheel-xf08c-rear-cassette-electric-bicycle-brushless-gear-hub-motor-281

 

[Cadence]

I have both the yosepower 250 front (210 rpm/700/36v) and an xf07 front (270 rpm/26/36v). The Yosepower seems strong/reliable (and the controller runs cool) but it can be slow, particularly towards the second half of a journey as the battery volts drop.
The 270 rpm xf07 is certainly much faster but the controller can run very hot. For the last few months, I have been running this motor with a 9 mosfet 22A controller turned down to 16 Amps and its running great. The controller only barely get warm.
I am tempted to buy something like the xf15 below (285 rpm at 36v) so I can fully exploit my 22 amp controller.
https://www.pswpower.com/products/mxus-36v-250w-xf07-front-xf08-rear-freewheel-xf08c-rear-cassette-electric-bicycle-brushless-gear-hub-motor-281

That's interesting - thanks for the input. I didn't know that the Yose front was only 210rpm. Is it a recent one? I suspect it would be slower on 26". I have to pair it with a Yose 15A integrated controller, so it would be even slower for me. The other thing that puts me off is the stupidly long motor cable that makes front wheel removal a bit of a pain. I would also have to buy the complete kit which has a 5in1 cable, so I'd need to buy a 4in1. That plus I already have a Yose C500 display, throttle and brake levers , so it makes it a wasteful purchase.
What's the XF07 like on hills?
I hadn't realised that the X15 came in 36v. and it's food for thought. It's a bit of a heavy lump for the front though (3.7Kg) and I suspect it will need more than my 15A to get the best out of it. I suppose the answer is a another controller and Yose do an 18A integrated one (9 mosfet) for the HL battery - but the cost keeps heading north!

 

[Sturmey]

That's interesting - thanks for the input. I didn't know that the Yose front was only 210rpm. Is it a recent one? I suspect it would be slower on 26". I have to pair it with a Yose 15A integrated controller, so it would be even slower for me. The other thing that puts me off is the stupidly long motor cable that makes front wheel removal a bit of a pain. I would also have to buy the complete kit which has a 5in1 cable, so I'd need to buy a 4in1. That plus I already have a Yose C500 display, throttle and brake levers , so it makes it a wasteful purchase.
What's the XF07 like on hills?
I hadn't realised that the X15 came in 36v. and it's food for thought. It's a bit of a heavy lump for the front though (3.7Kg) and I suspect it will need more than my 15A to get the best out of it. I suppose the answer is a another controller and Yose do an 18A integrated one (9 mosfet) for the HL battery - but the cost keeps heading north!

Mine is the older kit (2019) with LCD3, Kt controller and front light. The motor externally looks similar to an xf07 except for the thin locknut on axle. It has the long motor cable with no connector at wheel. If you put the cable facing down with a 'drip loop' there is enough slack to change a tyre or tube with little disturbance of the cable (except to open one tie).
The 4in1 and 5in1 cable are almost the same except for the center pin. You can plug a 4in1 cable(male) in to a 5in1 controller(female) and it will work. You normally can not do the reverse unless you break the center pin off which is not recommended although I have done it and it works. The light function will not work in either case. (With the kits I have, you can (via a fuse & switch) connect the light to the battery as there is a small buck converter fitted into back of light.)

 

[Cadence]

I have emailed Yosepower and asked them what the max. rpm of the currently- listed 26" front kit is. It will be interesting to hear what they come back with. I take your point about the long motor cable, although just to make it a bit more awkward I have full mudguards. Don't want the light and I had thought about breaking off the extra pin in the 5-1 cable. Neither is a deal breaker, but the max RPM is.
How do you find the XF07 on hills?

 

[Sturmey]

How do you find the XF07 on hills?

The 270 rpm xf07 that I have seem to quickly heat up the standard 15A controller that came with the kit. (I also had this problem with the 280rpm rear Yose 350W (2018) kit). With the larger 9 mosfet controller this is not a problem and the motor seems to perform as good as the front Yosepower on hills and of course faster on the flat.
For me anyhow (age late 60s, 90Kg and not very fit), I find this motor satisfactory for maximum longish hills of perhaps 5% grade and perhaps up to 8% grade for short ramps. A fit lighter rider will do a lot better.
For steeper hills, I have to get off the bike and push it , but the throttle is very useful in this case as a walk assist. I never stall the motor.
I have a different bike that I generally use for heavy mountain use.

 

[Cadence]

Thanks again for your observations. I'm finding all this fascinating. I notice that Woosh supply their XF07 kits with a Lishui 18A 9 mosfet controller, which is the same as I've got on my Yose 350W and 250W rear motors. Neither of them get more than slightly luke warm even up some quite steep hills. Conclusion after discussion with Saneagle elsewhere on the forum is that they are both 280rpm, hence why I'm not keen on 210.

BTW, I'm 72, 78Kg and after smoking for too many years I'm no athlete, but I've never had to get off and walk yet. I claim no credit for that as it's the electrickery doing most of the work!