Which kit?

[rog_london]

I can't see anyone getting that license riding an ebike with a 20mph limit. The way you would have to ride it safely would be completely different to what the official at the test center (would would probably conduct the test on a large motorcycle) would expect.

You would have to do the test on a moped or 125, not exactly ideal just to get an ebike license.

Well, of course, there is no such thing as an e-bike license. You would be taking a moped test (at least). You would then be able to ride one of these US-spec machines but it would be registered here as a moped and would need a numberplate. One qualification in the type-approval process would be establishing a design speed of less than 30mph under power.

You could ride that on L-plates, just as you would any other moped. If you had a non-recent car license, you would not even need the L-plates, but in all cases you WOULD need third party insurance.

What the reaction of the driving test examiner would be if you turned up on a registered (i.e. with numberplate) electric bike, I don't know. Technically he/she would probably need to accept it.

Rog

 

[flecc]

I can't see anyone getting that license riding an ebike with a 20mph limit. The way you would have to ride it safely would be completely different to what the official at the test center (would would probably conduct the test on a large motorcycle) would expect.

You would have to do the test on a moped or 125, not exactly ideal just to get an ebike license.

The test rules are that the test can be taken on any qualifying machine, and once through type approval, the e-bike will have qualified as a moped for that test. The speed is not relevant, the law on mopeds only specifying a maximum of 30 mph, no minimum. The law also doesn't specify the form a moped takes, it can be bike like if the constructor or designer determines that.
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[torrent99]

The test rules are that the test can be taken on any qualifying machine, and once through type approval, the e-bike will have qualified as a moped for that test. The speed is not relevant, the law on mopeds only specifying a maximum of 30 mph, no minimum. The law also doesn't specify the form a moped takes, it can be bike like if the constructor or designer determines that.
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I'm curious about how much like a full moped it needs to be? For example does it need indicators? A permanent headlight? A speedo? Brakelights? etc. etc. Would a e-bicycle with a numberplate qualify?

 

[flecc]

I'm curious about how much like a full moped it needs to be? For example does it need indicators? A permanent headlight? A speedo? Brakelights? etc. etc. Would a e-bicycle with a numberplate qualify?

A test would be necessary to find those out, so the first to try would be the guinea pig. Those are easily overcome though, and the retest fee is only £16.

The real snag I hadn't mentioned, wondering if anyone would spot it. It's that the rider would need to do all future cycling wearing an approved motorcycle crash helmet. An open face one wouldn't be too bad given the high motor power wouldn't need supplementing with much cycling effort, but how would the rider feel about being seen like that?

Personally I'd just buy an electric moped for as little as £1000, saving myself some money and bother in the process.
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[Mussels]

I'm curious about how much like a full moped it needs to be? For example does it need indicators? A permanent headlight? A speedo? Brakelights? etc. etc. Would a e-bicycle with a numberplate qualify?

Motorbikes aren't required to have any lights apart from a brake light, there is a special daytime only MOT. A brake light wouldn't be hard to fix up and it's something I'd quite like now.

 

[The Maestro]

The test rules are that the test can be taken on any qualifying machine, and once through type approval, the e-bike will have qualified as a moped for that test. The speed is not relevant, the law on mopeds only specifying a maximum of 30 mph, no minimum. The law also doesn't specify the form a moped takes, it can be bike like if the constructor or designer determines that.
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That may be but having taken CBT and a restricted motorcycle test I know that the instructors and testers will expect you to take up a commanding position in the middle of your lane even on a moped class vehicle. They will fail you if you ride in the gutter or in a cycle lane(which you by law would not be allowed into). They would not have a clue how to deal with someone taking a test on a 20mph ebike with extremely slow acceleration.

I really think we should knock on the head all this disussion of applying a moped scenario (type approval, rider licensing etc. etc.) to a fast ebike because it it patently utterly ridiculous and nobody would ever want do it and i doubt very much whether they would even be able to. The only way is to either raise the current limit for faster ebikes or come up with a specific category and deal with it individually possibly with a relaxed moped type regulation and a specific test. However I would favour no test at all because they are still a bicycle travelling at bicycle speeds, with bicycle acceleration and bicycle weight and overall a very similar potential to cause damage to a normal bicycle.

 

[flecc]

That may be but having taken CBT and a restricted motorcycle test I know that the instructors and testers will expect you to take up a commanding position in the middle of your lane even on a moped class vehicle. They will fail you if you ride in the gutter or in a cycle lane(which you by law would not be allowed into). They would not have a clue how to deal with someone taking a test on a 20mph ebike with extremely slow acceleration.

I really think we should knock on the head all this disussion of applying a moped scenario (type approval, rider licensing etc. etc.) to a fast ebike because it it patently utterly ridiculous and nobody would ever want do it and i doubt very much whether they would even be able to. The only way is to either raise the current limit for faster ebikes or come up with a specific category and deal with it individually possibly with a relaxed moped type regulation and a specific test. However I would favour no test at all because they are still a bicycle travelling at bicycle speeds, with bicycle acceleration and bicycle weight and overall a very similar potential to cause damage to a normal bicycle.

Like many experienced cyclists I'm frequently in a dominant position in the centre of a lane and little different from my many years of motorcycling, so I can't see any problem with that. As for the instructors having to get use to new types, that's their job and not our problem.

There's no question of "knocking on the head" any discussion of e-bike matters since this is an e-bike forum. To say that such a scenario as a moped style e-bike class is ridiculous is clearly wrong when one considers that such classes exist in Germany (EU) and Switzerland. They exist there complete with number plates, helmets, insurance and speeds up to 30 mph, and the bikes concerned are subject to the same EU type approval.

Examples of such bikes are the BikeTech Flyer F, all the BikeTech Flyer HS models, all the BikeTech Flyer S models and the Kalkhoff Pro Connect S. These models all have their type approval tests for that moped style class taken by the manufacturers using the multiple type approval scheme.
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[The Maestro]

Like many experienced cyclists I'm frequently in a dominant position in the centre of a lane and little different from my many years of motorcycling, so I can't see any problem with that. As for the instructors having to get use to new types, that's their job and not our problem.

There's no question of "knocking on the head" any discussion of e-bike matters since this is an e-bike forum. To say that such a scenario as a moped style e-bike class is ridiculous is clearly wrong when one considers that such classes exist in Germany (EU) and Switzerland. They exist there complete with number plates, helmets, insurance and speeds up to 30 mph, and the bikes concerned are subject to the same EU type approval.

Examples of such bikes are the BikeTech Flyer F, all the BikeTech Flyer HS models, all the BikeTech Flyer S models and the Kalkhoff Pro Connect S. These models all have their type approval tests for that moped style class taken by the manufacturers using the multiple type approval scheme.
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On a bicycle you keep a dominant position when you can keep up with the traffic in front, at other times you would stay in far to the left. Maybe you would keep up in a congested town center (as I'm sure many of us do) but if you came to a steep hill you could be down to 6-8 mph and the drivers behind you would be bloody furious especially if there was an available bicycle lane. You may say its the instructors and tester's job to keep up with this new vehicle type but frankly they won't. Almost none of them will ever have come across such a thing. I can almost guarentee that noone will ever get a moped licence while riding an ebike - it will just never happen because of all the barriers involved, end of story.

I thought the Germans and Swiss had specific provision for this. I doubt you will find anything similar in the UK even if theoretically it should be. We can't even take a European Standard driving test without breaking the law.

You can't expect the UK to be as good at this kind of thing as the Germans and Swiss anyway because they are far better than us in every conceivable way when it comes to transport and haven't flushed all their money down the toilet.

 

[flecc]

You may say its the instructors and tester's job to keep up with this new vehicle type but frankly they won't. Almost none of them will ever have come across such a thing. I can almost guarentee that noone will ever get a moped licence while riding an ebike

You must be much younger than me, it's happened before. When autocycles and later on the add-on petrol motors for bikes were introduced, testers had never seen the like before, but they learnt and went on to give full motorcycle licences to well over a million UK people riding these bikes. Things were easier then, but things are easier for the testers now as well since it's not a full motorcycle licence involved, just the very restricted moped licence.

You can't expect the UK to be as good at this kind of thing as the Germans and Swiss anyway because they are far better than us in every conceivable way when it comes to transport and haven't flushed all their money down the toilet.

I fully agree with that!
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[Mussels]

That may be but having taken CBT and a restricted motorcycle test I know that the instructors and testers will expect you to take up a commanding position in the middle of your lane even on a moped class vehicle. They will fail you if you ride in the gutter or in a cycle lane(which you by law would not be allowed into). They would not have a clue how to deal with someone taking a test on a 20mph ebike with extremely slow acceleration.

I really think we should knock on the head all this disussion of applying a moped scenario (type approval, rider licensing etc. etc.) to a fast ebike because it it patently utterly ridiculous and nobody would ever want do it and i doubt very much whether they would even be able to. The only way is to either raise the current limit for faster ebikes or come up with a specific category and deal with it individually possibly with a relaxed moped type regulation and a specific test. However I would favour no test at all because they are still a bicycle travelling at bicycle speeds, with bicycle acceleration and bicycle weight and overall a very similar potential to cause damage to a normal bicycle.

I don't know why people keep saying 20mph is a normal bicycle speed, if I'm doing 20mph then I am going quite a bit faster than most bicycle riders in London. Higher speeds are possible and a few overtake me but it is not normal at all, if 20mph motors ever became normal then there would be a significantly higher number of accidents.

 

[The Maestro]

You must be much younger than me, it's happened before. When autocycles and later on the add-on petrol motors for bikes were introduced, testers had never seen the like before, but they learnt and went on to give full motorcycle licences to well over a million UK people riding these bikes.
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I should correct myself, what I should have said is that I can't see it happening with any of the lowish power fast ebikes available today, e.g. the Torq 1 and the Flyers. These are still very low power even compared to a moped (continuous power) and rely heavily on pedal assist to achieve their top speeds, and they would only reach their top speed on the flat with a decent piece of open road. Very similar performance to a normal bike but allowing a less fit person to get more out of them and not get hot and sweaty.

The pertrol motorised add ons if I remember were pretty fast even 40 years ago, my Grandad even had one. They were pretty much moped performance. 30mph available on tap, up hills, good acceleration, no rider input, noisy. Nothing like the bikes I was thinking of.

 

[flecc]

I should correct myself, what I should have said is that I can't see it happening with any of the lowish power fast ebikes available today, e.g. the Torq 1 and the Flyers. These are still very low power even compared to a moped (continuous power) and rely heavily on pedal assist to achieve their top speeds, and they would only reach their top speed on the flat with a decent piece of open road. Very similar performance to a normal bike but allowing a less fit person to get more out of them and not get hot and sweaty.

The pertrol motorised add ons if I remember were pretty fast even 40 years ago, my Grandad even had one. They were pretty much moped performance. 30mph available on tap, up hills, good acceleration, no rider input, noisy. Nothing like the bikes I was thinking of.

Sorry but I have to correct you on this. Most of the cyclemotors were very weak affairs. The Cyclemasters for example had a struggle to get to 20 mph and were very slow on hills, needing pedal help all the way, and few were much better. The PowerPak was the fastest, getting to a bit more than 20 mph on the flat but very much slower on hills and needing pedal assist on even moderate slopes. 30 mph on the flat was out of the question.

I used to fit and service these things from 1950 on, so I know them well, and I can assure you that today's mopeds would leave them for dead. Broadly speaking they were not much different from e-bikes other than the speed on the flat where they were more like the derestricted Torq 1. In fact their power outputs were very similar to or lower than todays hub motors, but they had far less torque which was why they were so poor on hills.

It's academic anyway, the moped class only has a maximum speed, no minimum, and the driving tester has to accomodate accordingly, just as they always have done with every new vehicle type. Nowhere in law does the driving test applicant have to turn up with a moped tested to reach 30 mph but not a fraction more. It can be any degree slower just so long as it's not faster.

We are a bit off subject in this thread so I'm going to enter a new thread tomorrow showing exactly why there is nothing stopping anyone having a faster e-bike in the UK, covering all the points you raise and more.
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[The Maestro]

Sorry but I have to correct you on this. Most of the cyclemotors were very weak affairs. The Cyclemasters for example had a struggle to get to 20 mph and were very slow on hills, needing pedal help all the way, and few were much better. The PowerPak was the fastest, getting to a bit more than 20 mph on the flat but very much slower on hills and needing pedal assist on even moderate slopes. 30 mph on the flat was out of the question.

I used to fit and service these things from 1950 on, so I know them well, and I can assure you that today's mopeds would leave them for dead. Broadly speaking they were not much different from e-bikes other than the speed on the flat where they were more like the derestricted Torq 1. In fact their power outputs were very similar to or lower than todays hub motors, but they had far less torque which was why they were so poor on hills.

It's academic anyway, the moped class only has a maximum speed, no minimum, and the driving tester has to accomodate accordingly, just as they always have done with every new vehicle type. Nowhere in law does the driving test applicant have to turn up with a moped tested to reach 30 mph but not a fraction more. It can be any degree slower just so long as it's not faster.

We are a bit off subject in this thread so I'm going to enter a new thread tomorrow showing exactly why there is nothing stopping anyone having a faster e-bike in the UK, covering all the points you raise and more.
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Ok I am obviously incorrect here, but I still can't see it happening today. Just from my perception, I suppose. I think back then bicycles and derivatives were viewed by people in power as essential transport and a way for poorer people to hold down a job that wasn't within walking distance or on a tram/bus route. Today the bike is really seen as more of a leisure tool.

 

[flecc]

The social changes are true, but don't forget that the petrol cyclemotors are still just as legal and some are still being ridden on the road, with at least one new one on the market as well. Anyone can turn up for a moped CBT or test on those and cannot be refused since the precedent exists.
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[Lovesexy]

OK, back to the original topic for a minute

I'm thinking that the Phoenix Cruiser (5304) would be ideal for me. Fast on flat but has decent torque for some hill climbs.
http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/crystalyte-phoenix-electric-bike-kit-p-153.php

Sound OK?

Also, which battery should I be going for?
Results for 36V LiFePO4 Battery Packs

Is LifePO4 the way to go? If so what difference does the amp make?

Cheers

 

[torrent99]

OK, back to the original topic for a minute

I'm thinking that the Phoenix Cruiser (5304) would be ideal for me. Fast on flat but has decent torque for some hill climbs.
Crystalyte Phoenix Electric Bike Kit - eCo Wheelz

Sound OK?

Also, which battery should I be going for?
Results for 36V LiFePO4 Battery Packs

Is LifePO4 the way to go? If so what difference does the amp make?

Cheers

The 5304 gets good respect on EndlessSphere.

The Ping combined with a 5304 however, may not be a good combination according to those that have used it on EndlessSphere. Pings have a low "C value", which in short means they aren't particularly good at delivering very high currents (I understand the BMS is the main problem).

However, you should do some research on EndlessSphere first, as they have a lot of experience with the 5304 motor and ping batteries!

 

[flecc]

That will certainly give you the performance, but at 1500 Watts for the 36 volt version those Ping batteries are out of the question. You'd need three of them in parallel to supply enough current and the cost of that would be astronomic.

I think you are going for an impractical power which brings very high weight and battery demands, plus the fact it's not slightly bending the law as you put it, it's throwing the law right out of the window with six times the permitted power rating and double the permitted assist speed.

The weight will end up huge with 11 kilos of motor and about 14 kilos of bike plus probably 14 kilos of SLA battery from that site. That 39 kilos will be almost the legal 40 kilo limit with battery mountings etc still to add. Any alternative battery type to give enough current for a 1500 Watt motor will be extremely expensive.

P.S. Crossed with torrent99's post.
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[Lovesexy]

Thanks guys, I don't understand why these kits are advertised if it's not feasible to actually use them.

OK, let's say for arguments sake I'd like a set up which gives me 10mph non assisted up hills and around 20mph non assisted on the flat for a total of roughly 20km. What would be the best kit/batteries etc...?

It goes without saying that I'd be pedalling at some points...

Anyone used a Forsen kit? They seem to have decent results.

 

[torrent99]

Pimp your ride...

That will certainly give you the performance, but at 1500 Watts for the 36 volt version those Ping batteries are out of the question. You'd need three of them in parallel to supply enough current and the cost of that would be astronomic.

I think you are going for an impractical power which brings very high weight and battery demands, plus the fact it's not slightly bending the law as you put it, it's throwing the law right out of the window with six times the permitted power rating and double the permitted assist speed.

The weight will end up huge with 11 kilos of motor and about 14 kilos of bike plus probably 14 kilos of SLA battery from that site. That 39 kilos will be almost the legal 40 kilo limit with battery mountings etc still to add. Any alternative battery type to give enough current for a 1500 Watt motor will be extremely expensive.

P.S. Crossed with torrent99's post.
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Flecc's analysis above clearly shows the technical challenges of the 25mph beast you are attempting to build...so how about this for a strategy?:

1) Buy a Suzhou Bafang based bike such as a second hand Ezee Torq or a Wisper 905.
2) Ride it around in its normal configuration.
3) If you are not happy with that....then pimp it up as follows:
a) Get some replacement metal gears from ecrazyman@gmail.com (essential as the Bafang motor may strip its normal plastic gears otherwise)
b) Buy a new controller. 48V or even 72V if you are feeling really flush.
c) Buy the appropriate 48 or 72V battery. Pings may or may not be suitable for this purpose, but research beforehand.

(The Bafang motor is apparently very good for overvolting).

OR

1) Buy an electric moped.

 

[Lovesexy]

Electric moped is out of the question as it wouldn't get me to my destination any sooner. In Paris you can bend the rules slightly as a 'cyclist' and a bicycle will allow me to ride in the many cycle lanes we have over here.

Getting hold of one of those bikes 2nd hand her in Paris or my hometown (London) would be next to impossible. Ebay has nada listed at the moment.

I kinda wanna build this thing as well, would be fun! I think...