Wisper 905SE City: 3 weeks report :)

[hardrock15]

I have been riding this wonderful bike since last 3 weeks, and am absolutely delighted with it The best thing is that the battery of this bike: it goes on and on and on...

Well, to give you concrete numbers, I am getting a range of 50-55 miles (for my daily to and fro commute of 9 miles per day,fairly flat surface, central london, very less wind, this means that I only have to charge this battert once per week !!!) (My weight is 60 kgs(9.5 stones) and with all accessories(bag, laptop, etc.) , I guess it would be atleast 70kgs (11 stones), may be that explains it??)

Questions:
- One other curious thing is this: Even after 50 miles, the last green light of the battery refuses to die, so I just charge it (after 50 miles) fearing that emptying the battery may damage it. Is my fear valid?
- the wisper manual recommends the following tools for Wisper maintenance:
a. Torque wrench with N.m gradations
b. 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 mm Allen wrenches (keys)
c. 9, 10, 15 mm open-end wrenches
d. 15 mm box end wrench
e. Socket wrench, 14, 15, and 19 mm socket
f. T25 Torque wrench
g. No. 1 Phillips head screwdriver
- Can any Wisper owner recommend a multitool which could fulfill all (well if not all, almost all) of the above functions? Any particular recommendations for which multitool is best?
- I am considering ordering the Topeak Joe Blow Max 2 pump, and I hope it is the correct pump for Wisper tyres?

In summary, I am completely enjoying my new Electric Bike!!
Even if I felt that it was a bit costly initially, I think that this bike is worth every penny!!!

Will hopefully post some pictures after 2-3 weeks

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the report, your weight is certainly a major contribution to the long range, basically the lower the vehicles power, the more body weight affects it so e-bikes benefit the most from a light owner.

It's best with lithium batteries to charge them as often as possible, so if your journeys are less than 50 miles it's much better to do one or two intermediate charges than ride it to low as you are doing. That stresses the battery cells much less.
.

 

[hardrock15]

Thanks flecc! You are a legend! You are the lifeblood of this forum

I was following the Wisper instructions to have 3 complete discharging (emptying the battery completely) and charging (for 12 hours) cycles. I have completed only 2 such cycles. I will surely follow your advice after the cycles complete!

Also can I request estimeed members to suggest a good multitool for Wisper maintenance ?

Once again flecc, many thanks for a reply !!

 

[flecc]

Thanks Hardrock15, but I'd be lost without the answers other members also give.

Your query for example, I don't use multitools so wouldn't have a clue what to recommend, so over to those who do know, good Multitool anyone for the requirements above? That pump will be fine by the way.
.

 

[Fecn]

In terms of the bike toolkit - Take a look at the Topeak Alien II - It has at least 90% of what you need. - I spent forever looking at various bike toolsets (and bought three or four along the way) and this is the one I like best..

Tools include: 2, 2.5, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 & 10mm Allen wrenches, 8, 9 & 10mm hex bolt wrenches (each 2pcs), mini pedal wrench, Phillips & flat screwdrivers, universal chain tool, spoke wrenches for 14g & 15g, 2 tyre levers, stainless steel knife, bottle opener, T25 Torx wrench for disc brakes, 10mm Allen socket for Shimano’s new crank bolts & a compartment for two chain pins

 

[Wooky]

In terms of the bike toolkit - Take a look at the Topeak Alien II - It has at least 90% of what you need. - I spent forever looking at various bike toolsets (and bought three or four along the way) and this is the one I like best..

Cheap here with free delivery Alien 2 - CycleExpress presuming they have some!

 

[Mussels]

I considered the Alien multi tool as it is very good but many of the features weren't useful on the wisper negating the extra cost and weight.
I got a cheap Bikehut multi tool that has proved very strong, I also carry a small 20mm adjustable wrench. You may want to invest in a round spoke wrench as the 13g spokes on the Wisper are never covered on a multi tool.
I also carry a small pair of folding pliers with a knife and wirecutters built in for some of the more intricate roadside repairs.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Green light

Hi Hardrock

Thanks for the glowing report, I am really delighted you are enjoying your Wisper!

You may well have a green light on after only 50 miles or so in the conditions you describe I beleive you would get nearer to 70 miles as achieved often in road testing in New Zealand and Shanghai. However as Flecc says, it is better to keep the battery topped up so you do not put any stress on the cells at all than run them flat.

All the best David

 

[hardrock15]

Fecn/ Wooky and Mussels,

Thanks a ton for your replies! I really appreciate them

David,

Regarding keeping the battery topped up, I planned to do that after the 3 deep charge/discharge cycles, (which I have just completed).

Also, can you give best practice guidance for charging Wisper 905 SE city battery?
I found the following in Manuals, but think that it is not enough:
"After this “conditioning” process you can then charge and discharge
the battery as and when you require for long or short periods."

- To rephrase, exactly how much should be the battery charged and how frequently? (e.g. charge to full whenever charge becomes equal to 2 lights)
- Is there any harm to keep charging the battery overnight? Or should it be charged only for 4-5 hours (untill it shows all 4 green lights)?
- Does memory effect apply to Wisper battries(pardon my ignorance :S ) Any care required to avoid it?
- When do Wisper batteries perform best:
A. When they undergo (comparatively) deeper discharge cycles (1 green light -> charge -> 4 green lights -> discharge -> 1 green light -> charge -> 4 green lights -> discharge -> , etc.)
B. When they are constantly kept charged (e.g. 2 green lights -> charge -> 4 green lights -> discharge -> 3 green light -> charge -> 4 green lights -> discharge -> , etc.)

Once again, thanks for any/all answers!!

 

[torrent99]

Fecn/ Wooky and Mussels,

Thanks a ton for your replies! I really appreciate them

David,

Regarding keeping the battery topped up, I planned to do that after the 3 deep charge/discharge cycles, (which I have just completed).

Also, can you give best practice guidance for charging Wisper 905 SE city battery?
I found the following in Manuals, but think that it is not enough:
"After this “conditioning” process you can then charge and discharge
the battery as and when you require for long or short periods."

- To rephrase, exactly how much should be the battery charged and how frequently? (e.g. charge to full whenever charge becomes equal to 2 lights)
- Is there any harm to keep charging the battery overnight? Or should it be charged only for 4-5 hours (untill it shows all 4 green lights)?
- Does memory effect apply to Wisper battries(pardon my ignorance :S ) Any care required to avoid it?
- When do Wisper batteries perform best:
A. When they undergo (comparatively) deeper discharge cycles (1 green light -> charge -> 4 green lights -> discharge -> 1 green light -> charge -> 4 green lights -> discharge -> , etc.)
B. When they are constantly kept charged (e.g. 2 green lights -> charge -> 4 green lights -> discharge -> 3 green light -> charge -> 4 green lights -> discharge -> , etc.)

Once again, thanks for any/all answers!!

Short Answer: B).

Medium Answer: Basically batteries don't like deep discharge so if you charge them after every journey (if possible) that will limit how much you discharge them and prolong the life. So B)

Long Answer: Ideally batteries don't really like being 100% charged either (though not as much as deep discharge). If you can keep a battery below 100% charge it will last longer. The Toyota Prius uses complex circuitry to keep its batteries between 20% and 80% charge so that they last much longer than otherwise.
In practice for e-bikes it's very difficult to know exactly how charged a battery is and so keep within certain bounds, plus the added life probably isn't worth the hassle of complicated charging regimes. So in practice B) is probably the best overall. (Plus you might need that extra few percent once in a while!)

 

[Straylight]

Would there be no way of controling the maximum charge via the BMS? As surely it prevents overcharging by shutting off the charging current when the cells reach a certain resistance or have a set pottential differece across their poles, wouldn't it be a matter of adjusting this shut off level to equate to 80% as opposed to full cell capacity?

With the cost of high end e-bike batteries, I'd gladly sacrifice some range to increase the longevity. Particularly as I follow the received wisdom of charging as often as possible. Maybe there could be some kind of setting on the pack itself, so people could have the choice, i.e. to be able to switch to full capacity charging when you know you're about to do a long run, but have it set to long life mode the rest of the time.

 

[flecc]

Would there be no way of controling the maximum charge via the BMS? As surely it prevents overcharging by shutting off the charging current when the cells reach a certain resistance or have a set pottential differece across their poles, wouldn't it be a matter of adjusting this shut off level to equate to 80% as apposed to full cell capacity?

Possible in theory, and in fact the BMS is normally designed to only charge to a safe level a little short of the maximum possible.

In practice not so easy though, since the BMS circuitry is commonly made up of sub-miniature surface mount components with no adjustable elements. In some cases they are fully encapsulated and inaccessible.

Here's a look at a typical battery open BMS, both the mainboard and the individual cell boards above the cells:

 

[Straylight]

I see what you mean Flecc I suppose I was directing my comments to the manufacturers that read this board, rather than proposing it as a DIY project

Maybe we (collectively) should start a wish list for future developments in e-bike technology....

 

[Bigbee]

I think this has been done many times on here Stray,my request for a beer can holder and seperate ashtray has yet to fitted to ebikes.

 

[Mussels]

I think this has been done many times on here Stray,my request for a beer can holder and seperate ashtray has yet to fitted to ebikes.

Dunno about you but my bike came with a good beer can holder fitted, though it might be a bit low down for the most frequent users.

 

[Barnowl]

I think this has been done many times on here Stray,my request for a beer can holder and seperate ashtray has yet to fitted to ebikes.

A cigar lighter would be usefull.

 

[Straylight]

LOL - you know what I mean

Stuff like any improvements to say the throttle system, gear range, maybe as you say a ciggarette lighter (standard 12v socket) for powering GPS units etc?

It seems to me that the only ideas that the manufacturers have is in relation to the battery, and even this progression is painfully slow. If Toyota understood the characteristics of lithium cells well enough to make them with an extended life, then why not the makers of e-bikes?

I was thinking along the lines of a dedicated folder on the forum where ideas could be discussed/discarded/improved upon, a place where the people in the buisiness could see what their users actually want from their machines - any takers?

 

[torrent99]

I see what you mean Flecc I suppose I was directing my comments to the manufacturers that read this board, rather than proposing it as a DIY project

Maybe we (collectively) should start a wish list for future developments in e-bike technology....

Well I believe Wisper has been looking at super improved BMS for their next battery. I think David mentioned something about a serial interface where you can read off things like number of charges and discharges, charge amounts etc.

 

[Straylight]

Hopefully with some software controlable settings....Sadly those of us with the 2008 model wont be able to use this as they've changed the power interface on the new models (conversion kit - hint - conversion kit ).

On the subject of the suggestion box, David at Wisper is living proof that the manufacturers do listen to what their consumer base has to say, but buisiness being what it is, a proactive reponse will only occur with a sufficient demand to drive it. It's no good random individuals like me banging on about this or that without a concensus of oppinion to demonstrate a genuine need. This is why I say that we should be using our collective experience, as frequent users of e-bikes, to suggest viable paths of improvement.

 

[flecc]

If Toyota understood the characteristics of lithium cells well enough to make them with an extended life, then why not the makers of e-bikes?

In fact the Prius uses the older NiMh cells, not lithium, and they don't have an extended life as such. All cells last longer if cycle charged with a small proportion of their capacity, no special knowledge of Toyota is involved, and the cells are Panasonic ones.

For example, satellites using either NiMh or lithium cells are launched to last ten years, and during that service life they use the batteries for a short period each day during the dark phase out of sight of the sun. On getting back into the light they solar recharge the small amount used which is typically only one seventh of the cell capacity, and as a result easily last the 3650 or so charges that result before replacement.

Our present batteries could do that just as well, but would we be happy with one seventh of the range and very low performance? Of course not, it's completely impractical. In addition, the satellite current usage is at a fairly low and steady rate which is best from a battery's point of view. Our e-bike use is at a variable and often very high rate which puts the most strain on cells.

Toyota can only do it because the Prius is not a hybrid car as they claim but purely a petrol car which uses the battery for a bit of cycle-charging to recover from kinetic energy some of the petrol energy expended for subsequent use.
.