yet another example of how dangerous cycling can be.m

oriteroom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 13, 2008
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Fully justifiably of course as his firm pays road fund licence.
Apparently not D8ve!! From road.cc comments....

"And yes, the van has no MOT.https://www.vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ NC56 FMP Ford

- and is actually being driven on a SORN. So driver and owner are breaking the law."

Makes you wonder if it was insured as well. Of course, I expect the van driver was just driving it to a booked appointment at a MOT station, to get it MOT so he could nip to the Post Office to get it taxed! :)
Will PC plod pick that one up. No, of course that's detective work!

Seems like theWild West around there o_O
 
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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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From what I have seen on a couple of vids is that both were being dicks except the van driver took it further to be the biggest one.
Personally the minimum he should be charged with is assault even if bike dick dosen't press charges the plod should be able to make it stick they have the evidence.
Just cannot see why no complaint /charge was made esp as he sent it viral looks like he's lost his bottle.
Having seen this I am thinking /considering a small bike cam may be useful.
 
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Alan Quay

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Dec 4, 2012
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From what I have seen on a couple of vids is that both were being dicks except the van driver took it further to be the biggest one.
Personally the minimum he should be charged with is assault even if bike dick dosen't press charges the plod should be able to make it stick they have the evidence.
Just cannot see why no complaint /charge was made esp as he sent it viral looks like he's lost his bottle.
Having seen this I am thinking /considering a small bike cam may be useful.
Nothing illegal about being a dick. Nothing illegal about calling someone a Muppet, or pointing out that they are breaking the law.

Driving while on the phone: Illegal
Assaulting with fist's: Illegal
Driving an un-taxed, un-MOT'd and UN-insured vehicle: Illegal
Assaulting someone with a vehicle: very Illegal.

Thugs like this need to be locked up for everyone's safety.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Nothing illegal about calling someone a Muppet
While I agree on your point about thuggery, I can't excuse the cyclist's behaviour.

Section 5 of the 1986 Public Order Act used to mean that "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" might be deemed a criminal offence. A House of Lords intervention resulted in the word insulting being removed, their intention being to prevent the police having a criminal charge for extremely minor matters such as disagreeing with an organisation on a placard.

The cyclists shout was still arguably abusive and therefore likely to cause a breach of the peace. The fact that it did just that proves the law was broken and a public order offence committed.

Personally I'm strongly opposed to the use of bike cams against other road users, considering them provocative. There's little doubt that a fair proportion of those using them for that purpose are actually looking for trouble, we've seen plenty of evidence for that.
.
 

Alan Quay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 4, 2012
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While I agree on your point about thuggery, I can't excuse the cyclist's behaviour.

Section 5 of the 1986 Public Order Act used to mean that "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" might be deemed a criminal offence. A House of Lords intervention resulted in the word insulting being removed, their intention being to prevent the police having a criminal charge for extremely minor matters such as disagreeing with an organisation on a placard.

The cyclists shout was still arguably abusive and therefore likely to cause a breach of the peace. The fact that it did just that proves the law was broken and a public order offence committed.

Personally I'm strongly opposed to the use of bike cams against other road users, considering them provocative. There's little doubt that a fair proportion of those using them for that purpose are actually looking for trouble, we've seen plenty of evidence for that.
.
Yes, I accept that the cyclist actions were aggressive.
 
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RobF

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Sep 22, 2012
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Yes, I accept that the cyclist actions were aggressive.
And his undertake was rubbish riding.

But other than those two things, his behaviour was exemplary.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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And his undertake was rubbish riding.

But other than those two things, his behaviour was exemplary.
That sounds like the dishonest shop assistant saying to the magistrates, "But I only took some of the money in the till". ;)
.
 
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jonathan75

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 24, 2013
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The cyclists shout was still arguably abusive and therefore likely to cause a breach of the peace. The fact that it did just that proves the law was broken and a public order offence committed.

.
I can see that what you're saying is capable of being true - if the abusiveness was really really severe - but even then I doubt any police officer or judge would wish to charge or convict, except in the most extreme circumstances.

I don't think the Public Order Act was designed to stop people being moderately rude to people breaking safety-related criminal laws. It is a vague law with wide discretion and it's used to stop or condemn serious harm only. Telling someone rudely that you're angry at their breaking the law isn't a serious harm. For many it is a commendable act of civic virtue. I don't see why we should wait for criminals to be put in the stocks before we throw fruit at them, figuratively speaking. In fact public opinion of society at large, should surely be the first force which compels people to obey the law, rather than the courts. The courts can only prosecute a tiny fraction of crimes, largely to set an example to everyone else. It's wrong to ask them to do all the work, to say that 'moral guilt for breaking important rules of society is only ever properly apportioned by a court, and that until it makes a ruling of guilt, we should all be respectful, and afterwards too, because a criminal conviction is the only proper public blaming mechanism for harm-risking or harm-causing crimes'.

Of course if you, like many, believe that we should prosecute people only when their safety breaches result in an actual death or injury then you'd have a different view, because you'd think that driving while using a mobile isn't truly "criminal" unless someone is injured. Ergo, if there was no truly "criminal" act by the driver then there was less of a legitimate excuse for anger from the cyclist.

+ I'm afraid that you can't be said in law to have caused a crime by being rude to someone - the chain of causation is broken by the independent voluntary act of the violent van driver.
 
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tillson

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May 29, 2008
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My understanding is that the van driver has handed himself in to the police, but the identity of the cyclist is unknown, hence there is no complainant. In these circumstances it is unlikely that any prosecution will take place.
 

Alan Quay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 4, 2012
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I can see that what you're saying is capable of being true - if the abusiveness was really really severe - but even then I doubt any police officer or judge would wish to charge or convict, except in the most extreme circumstances.

I don't think the Public Order Act was designed to stop people being moderately rude to people breaking safety-related criminal laws. It is a vague law with wide discretion and it's used to stop or condemn serious harm only. Telling someone rudely that you're angry at their breaking the law isn't a serious harm. For many it is a commendable act of civic virtue. I don't see why we should wait for criminals to be put in the stocks before we throw fruit at them, figuratively speaking. In fact public opinion of society at large, should surely be the first force which compels people to obey the law, rather than the courts. The courts can only prosecute a tiny fraction of crimes, largely to set an example to everyone else. It's wrong to ask them to do all the work, to say that 'moral guilt for breaking important rules of society is only ever properly apportioned by a court, and that until it makes a ruling of guilt, we should all be respectful, and afterwards too, because a criminal conviction is the only proper public blaming mechanism for harm-risking or harm-causing crimes'.

Of course if you, like many, believe that we should prosecute people only when their safety breaches result in an actual death or injury then you'd have a different view, because you'd think that driving while using a mobile isn't truly "criminal" unless someone is injured. Ergo, if there was no truly "criminal" act by the driver then there was less of a legitimate excuse for anger from the cyclist.

+ I'm afraid that you can't be said in law to have caused a crime by being rude to someone - the chain of causation is broken by the independent voluntary act of the violent van driver.
I think the cyclists assessment of the Van driver as a "Muppet" has subsequently been proven to be an understatement.

Dangerous meat headed Fxxk-tard would have been closer to the mark.
 
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D8ve

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Jan 30, 2013
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I disagree with you Flecc. Cameras are double edged weapons.
Knowing you have one you are open to the evidence of your actions.
Having one can cause the aggressive fool to take stock and change there behavure. Or it can provide incontestable evidence of what realy happened.

Putting his video up leaves the cyclist open to criticism.
He was cycling on public road. He should have held more road position but.. Could well have been leaving space for overtakes.
The van driver ignored curtesy and the Highway Code not leaving at least a meter when overtaking.
The cyclist may well have been upset by the threatening and to him dangerous driving of the van.
The van driver responded by assault with the van followed by physical assault.
What happened next we don't know.
Threats to family if he pressed charges.
I am unhappy that the driver remains on the road with that attitude.
I fear for myself and others with Idiots like that around.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I disagree with you Flecc.
Possibly you don't! :)

I was very careful to post the following, not against having a camera for when there is a genuine need such as evidence, but using it against other road users such as in public online videos:

"Personally I'm strongly opposed to the use of bike cams against other road users, considering them provocative. There's little doubt that a fair proportion of those using them for that purpose are actually looking for trouble, we've seen plenty of evidence for that."

In my opinion there's already far too much both ways ill feeling between drivers and cyclists, and these online videos just stoke that further.
.
 
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D8ve

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Jan 30, 2013
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I'm glad we see somewhat similarly. I have respected you opinion in the past and didn't like to disagree. Fine points of view I am happy to disagree on but not the basics
 
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OldBob1

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Oct 11, 2012
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I can see a TV program starting here! video and CCTV evidence shown on big screen on a Saturday in the market square, affected persons in stocks, public supplied by Super Markets with out of date produces, Local council selling tickets for close range positions, to help fund the council short fall.
This could regenerate town centres and be bigger than football!!:rolleyes:
 
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