Nothing like a good discussion to cheer me up, even more, on a nice warm sunny morning........

 

Just come back from an exhilarating ride on my 25 kilo, ever so pretty Tonaro Esprit and, guess what, she did everything that I wanted her to.....she got me up these mountain roads like a Spanish Ibex.......which is why I bought her.....and why I vote for her..... with her modified updated technology, yummy hub gears etc, she does the job I want her to do........

 

My kids used to say I embarrassed them in their teens (dont we all )....its very reassuring to find I havent lost my touch

 

Must be a 'northern' Geordie thing......god....I am SO proud to be a Geordie.....

I have to say though, I have always preferred " slightly eccentric " to 'odd'.....

 

BTW Indalo......this Haibike......how many miles have you ridden on it ??.....over what sort of terrain.....just roads or forest type tracks as well ? ......what makes you, personally,really like it ?......is it comfortable to ride ?......I look forward to trying one next year......do they do a nice ''girly'' version ??

 

Responsible and dedicated e-biker Lynda.......in "Jamon Serrano" central ...

One thing you don't get with a Tonaro is the 'Bosch Wall' i.e. power cutting out abruptly when you hit 25 km/h as if you had hit the brakes.

One thing you don't get with a Tonaro is the 'Bosch Wall' i.e. power cutting out abruptly when you hit 25 km/h as if you had hit the brakes.

 

whilst readings hundreds of posts over on German forum I have not once heard anyone mention this "Bosch wall" except you:confused:. Its pretty easy to cycle past the cut out and hardly noticable...

One thing you don't get with a Tonaro is the 'Bosch Wall' i.e. power cutting out abruptly when you hit 25 km/h as if you had hit the brakes.

 

When I tried the Bosch system I found the 'Brick Wall' very noticeable which greatly compromised the bikes cruising abilities as at 16 mph you are on your own with no help at all. It was the same with the Panasonic system, in the cruise at around the 15 mph mark its like being pulled by a slack tow-rope, every now and then you get a quick snatch as the tow rope tightens, then goes slack with no thrust until the speed drops back again.

 

I found this to be a major drawback, and would prevent me buying one unless it was a mountain bike that I planned to ride up steep hills all day (where the crank drives are very good, at low speed). But for everything else I much prefer my Eagle. Faster, much less effort required, greater range by some margin, and a good deal less expensive to boot.

 

I think the crank drive systems offer huge promise, but their apparent emasculation by the regulations, and the high cost of the units together with their astronomical battery prices renders these systems a bit of a damp squib to my mind.

Owners insist the "Bosch wall" isn't there. It appears from comments on this that the impression comes from the fact that the power is sustained to nearer to 15 mph than we've been used to on the Panasonic unit previously, those sloping off the power very early.

 

However, it could be instructive for anyone used to the earlier Panasonic units to try a 2011 bike, since they too have power maintained to almost 15 mph. The new for 2012 36 volt version may be even more like the Bosch.

 

Re: the Haibike versus the Tonaro, the Haibike Xduro is simply a far better fundamental design. The frame structure is fully functional and free of gimmicks. The rear suspension is correctly designed for bicycle use, and the motor is mounted correctly for it's intended application range.

 

The nearest equivalent Tonaro model, the Bighit, falls down on each of those points. Of course it does the job of carrying someone around on their journeys and has the benefit of drive through the gears, but it simply is not in the same league as that Haibike. Of course I wouldn't expect it to be entirely so at the price difference, but most of the points I raised cost no more money.

.

Edited December 20, 201114 yr by flecc

Owners insist the "Bosch wall" isn't there. It appears from comments on this that the impression comes from the fact that the power is sustained to nearer to 15 mph than we've been used to on the Panasonic unit previously, those sloping off the power very early.

 

.

 

I guess if they have not experienced anything else, they might not notice any Brick Wall, but I spotted the issue within 30 seconds of riding, but probably because I had become accustomed to a hub drive.

 

If I had to go crank drive I would prefer the Bosch, as the Panasonic (probably an earlier one) was really quite weedy reducing power almost immediately after setting off, and always found some excuse to cut the power. It does seem remarkable that whilst the quality of manufacture of the Japanese crank drives is second to none, a cheap old Bafang 250 watt jobby actually fits the task much better and wins me over every time.

But then I'm an old git anyway.

 

a cheap old Bafang 250 watt jobby actually fits the task much better and wins me over every time.

 

If the territory is right that's undoubtedly true, it's a point I've made many times. Crank drive only really comes into it's own when the hill/rider combination is not possible with a given hub motor. Put another way, in about two thirds of Britain I wouldn't consider a crank drive, but there are parts of the remaining areas where I'd find one essential.

 

Of course crucial in this is the rider capability, which is why no-one can judge which system is right for anyone else, only the individual knows that.

The cut of is the reason I got my Flyer S all the bikes made in the Netherlands have the 25kph cut of.

I cruise at about 34-35 kph with some wind in my back over 40 plenty fast enough for me.

Though sunday night was scary the roads were like a mirror so a relaxed ride at 20kph no effort required.

though did slide back down a humpback bike bridge.casualty was busy the next morning.

I guess if they have not experienced anything else, they might not notice any Brick Wall, but I spotted the issue within 30 seconds of riding, but probably because I had become accustomed to a hub drive.

.

 

I have both so feel my opinion valid, a 23 mph DaaHub and the KTM Bosch (being replaced with a stepthrough Bosch) I enjoyed riding both, but kinda preferred the bionic nature and no/low noise of the crank drive for everyday riding. with a crank drive you fell that you are riding a bike not a moped and it is far more satisfying IMO

Edited December 20, 201114 yr by eddieo

I have both so feel my opinion valid, a 23 mph DaaHub and the KTM Bosch (being replaced with a stepthrough Bosch) I enjoyed riding both, but kinda preferred the bionic nature and no/low noise of the crank drive for everyday riding. with a crank drive you fell that you are riding a bike not a moped and it is far more satisfying IMO

 

As long term owner of both types, I agree on this Eddie. My crank drive Lafree and the Kalkhoffs tried have always felt more bicycle-like. Hub motor bikes can feel more moped-like, even more so when throttle controlled and especially with the most powerful motors.

 

Some crank drives can also be moped-like though, the old Yamaha PAS types were an example of that.

whilst readings hundreds of posts over on German forum I have not once heard anyone mention this "Bosch wall" except you John:confused:. Its pretty easy to cycle past the cut out and hardly noticable...

 

Hi Eddie,

 

To be fair, hitting the wall or mauer if you prefer was my first impression when I rode a Haibike at Presteigne. Apart from that I liked the bike, but it would benefit from a larger battery option, obviously that would make an expensive bike even more so.

Hi Eddie,

 

it would benefit from a larger battery option, obviously that would make an expensive bike even more so.

 

This caused me to reflect on when I used to ride my eZee bikes long distances with three 10 Ah batteries, one NiMh and two Li-ion, total costs of those new at the time, £700.

 

If I wanted to ride the same way with a BionX now, the batteries would cost me £3150.

Monster Ezee bike reviewed in Extra energy mag I read yesterday...Nu vinchi hub and twin battery's, a real beast!

 

Another bike getting a lot of attention is a S class beast with massive battery the "Green mover" It's a fine looking bike

 

Google Translate

 

Another bike getting a lot of attention is a S class beast with massive battery the "Green mover" It's a fine looking bike

 

Google Translate

 

They're not too shabby are they Ed? I don't suppose the motors are the same as the ones Storck use?

 

Indalo

They're not too shabby are they Ed? I don't suppose the motors are the same as the ones Storck use?

 

Indalo

 

I believe it is the same Swiss one, used in some other S class bikes too.

I believe it is the same Swiss one, used in some other S class bikes too.

 

Just to clarify this is manufactured under a Storck license, it's less powerful and heavier than that used on Storck Multitask and Multiroad bikes. The EU speed limiter is also mapped slightly differently too and comes in with a more noticable thump. So, whilst it looks very similar (in terms of motor casing) to that used by Storck Bicycles, it is a different motor

 

Great thread by the way,

 

Kind Regards

Owners insist the "Bosch wall" isn't there. It appears from comments on this that the impression comes from the fact that the power is sustained to nearer to 15 mph than we've been used to on the Panasonic unit previously, those sloping off the power very early.

 

However, it could be instructive for anyone used to the earlier Panasonic units to try a 2011 bike, since they too have power maintained to almost 15 mph. The new for 2012 36 volt version may be even more like the Bosch.

 

Speaking personally, I like the early phase down of the older Panasonic units and the barely perceptible cut-out. The older system encourages the rider to work harder, which I like. It provides plenty of power at start up to get the mass of rider and bike moving and then trickles energy into the system to help maintain the desired speed. Clearly this characteristic isn't to everyone's liking, but the new systems which maintain full power to near 15 mph seem like a retrograde step.

Speaking personally, I like the early phase down of the older Panasonic units and the barely perceptible cut-out. The older system encourages the rider to work harder, which I like. It provides plenty of power at start up to get the mass of rider and bike moving and then trickles energy into the system to help maintain the desired speed. Clearly this characteristic isn't to everyone's liking, but the new systems which maintain full power to near 15 mph seem like a retrograde step.

 

Me too, and I fully agree. The transition from motor power to pedal only power is so smooth on the traditional Panasonic unit that the changeover is imperceptible. It's the only e-bike design that has perfected this, most just crude in comparison.

They're not too shabby are they Ed? I don't suppose the motors are the same as the ones Storck use?

 

Indalo

 

Yes I thought that as soon as I looked at it, that finned motor popping up all over the place..... Its a fast S class bike with massive 670 Wh battery. On website thay have other models, but here is the conservative looking wolf in sheeps clothing:D

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/5s11k.png

Edited December 21, 201114 yr by eddieo

here is the conservative looking wolf in sheeps clothing:D

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/5s11k.png

 

I'm struggling a bit with the extra cross-brace but I think I want one.....like now!

 

Indalo

 

ps I'd probably change the saddle!

 

Indalo

Silly me! I failed to vote because I could not find the JuicyBike option ...

Tom

Silly me! I failed to vote because I could not find the JuicyBike option ...

Tom

 

In the original nominations thread, nobody nominated Juicybike for inclusion in the list Tom, hence it's absence.

In the original nominations thread, nobody nominated Juicybike for inclusion in the list Tom, hence it's absence.

 

That'll teach me not to go gadding about in Africa ...

That'll teach me not to go gadding about in Africa ...

 

Somehow I think you got the better deal....

I have been dithering over what to vote for. I am not sure on what basis I could judge the absolute best bike. I would have to set up a scoring for different characteristics and then add all the scores together. That method is inevitably subjective: it depends on my choice of things to score as well as any weighting assigned. However, I note that we are allowed to use our opinions rather than attempt absolute best.

 

So I think I will judge the bikes against my requirements for a bike. That means I will be choosing the best bike for me. That will include a value for money judgement - For example I won't want to pay a lot for a carbon frame when a cheaper metal one will do for me and I will accept the weight penalty because I have electric power to help me.

 

The difficulty I have is that I have little idea what many of these strangely named bikes are actually like, so I have checked out the top 6 bikes in the poll to see if I could vote for any of them.

 

Haibike EQ XDURO

£2759 - Ouch it would need to do a lot to justify that .

No step thru version - Nowadays I have to lean a bike a lot to swing my leg over the seat - a low step thru is so much easier.

Limited battery capacity so need to purchase and carry an extra if typical "range of 25 - 55 miles" is not enough.

This is really more of a mountain bike than a road bike. I don't ride mountain trails.

 

Tonaro Esprit

£1290

Full charge distance: 40-60 Km - range too limited

Otherwise not bad - It is step thru, and has front suspension and crank drive. Also I like the upright rider position which reduces weight on one's wrists - mine ache after an hour on the bike. Not sure about the white paint and I would throw away the shopping basket.

 

Storck Raddar Multitask

£2449+ - too expensive for what it offers

Women's "comfort" model has quite high cross bar requiring high leg lift in order to step-thru.

 

Kudos Tourer

£845.00 I like that but...

No front suspension: I like a smoother ride when on footpaths, cycle paths, or the potholed roads.

Not a step thru - I could I suppose go for the Duchesse ladies bike which looks similar but is unfortunately painted white.

Range: only "27-30 miles"

Seems to be front hub drive so no good for my measuring.

 

 

Cyclamatic Powerplus

c£500 - people speak of getting a second bike for DIY spares, and it sounds unreliable from stories I have found.

No performance specs to be found.

 

 

Kalkhoff Pro-Connect Disk 8

£1995

Now this is beginning to tick all the boxes - crank drive, available as low step thru, 460Wh battery, hub gears.

I am tempted to vote for it, however if I am not mistaken it has fixed front suspension, and the price is high.

 

 

I can't be bothered to look at the bikes that have got fewer than 5 votes.

 

I am now convinced that the best bike for me in 2011 is the one I bought:

Kalkhoff Agattu C3

£1425

This price last February was with 18Ah battery in place of 8Ah one giving me a measured range of over 80 miles with level 1 assist.

Low step thru, crank drive. Super smooth front suspension, and very upright riding position - I don't suffer from wrist ache any more. Also when overtaking another cyclist I can take one hand off the handlebars and adopt a very relaxed, no-effort posture in order to demoralise ... no I mean emphasise the effortless ride given by the electric bike.

3 gears are fine for my hills up to just over 10%, actually I think 3 gears are preferable to 8 - less gear changing required. On max assist, I beat most cars to 15 mph from the traffic lights, and starts on the steepest hills are no problem. It is nicely nippy in stop-go traffic.

 

Finally the torque sensor/ proportional controller combination on the Panasonic drive is perfectly set up to give a natural fine control of one's progress, responding instantly to varying pedal pressure. When riding there is absolutely no role for a hand throttle even if one were to be fitted. Switching assist level is instantaneous when you tap the button.