Hello,

 

i read in this forum about this small and lightweight tonxin (nano) motor. I found out that there is another small and lightweight motor from Suzhou Bafang Motor Science Co. LTD.:

Suzhou Bafang Motor Science Co.,Ltd.

Electric bike motor, Electric Bicycle motor,Shanghai Maxbright Industry Co.,Ltd.

Suzhou Bafang Motor Science Co.,Ltd.

...

 

Tongxin:

CHINA HANGZHOU ZHEDA TONGXIN ELECTRIC CO,. LTD.

 

What i found out: Both motors are 2,5kg in wight, both are brushless, both has a planetary gear..

 

Who knows more about the Suzhou Bafang Motor ?

Torque at low RPM ? efficiency ? Reliability ?

Other differences to Tongxin ?

Recommendable or not ?

 

Luke

I think the Suzhou EBM02 is the motor used in the eZee Torq and Quando models, in both front and rear wheel forms. They do use planetary gears. If this is the eZee one, it's far more powerful than the Tongxin Nano.

 

The Tongxin motor doesn't use planetary gears, instead it has a planetary roller drive relying on steel on steel friction to avoid slipping.

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I concur with Flecc, the motor looks identical to that used in the Torq/Quando, even down to the cable exit and format of the serial number. It's is larger than the Tonxgin, measuring approx 140mm dia across the flanges, and approx 115 wide across the locknuts, that is assuming it's the same as the original Ezee motor.

Hi,

 

eZee has stopped using the 8Fun or SuZhou Ba Fang motor as it known on our new models of the Torq, and we have now a brand new motor made exclusively ourselves and as with our controller. Does anyone know about this, should be on the Forum soon as suppose. But OK, let me contribute some information here.

 

The 8Fun motor is 3.05 kgs and not 2.5 kgs.

 

The Tongxin motor has appeared in a lot of new e-bikes pedelec or otherwise.

I must say it is pretty looking, but that is about all it is good at.

We have tested it when it first appeared 3 years old, and we write it off.

OK, how far you you think this motor will go ?

 

There was this event we participated in, a ride of 1200 km from Melbourne to Sydney in 9 days. and it was originally sponsored by Schwinn, and we know nothing about it until a few weeks before the event when I received an urgent phone call to sponsor the event. It was wise they figured out that this bike (with the Schwinn motor and Protanium? battery) is not going to make it. So we contributed with some Torqs, Sprints, and Cadence, and ONE Schwinn came along and it was subject to extensive repairs all along the way, and all cross the finishing line, except the Schwinn with the Nano TongXin motor in full human mode.

 

My distributor in for Canada also took in some TongXin motor, before we met in Vancouver this Spring 2007. I don't think he is going to import it anymore.

 

I just visited my new distributor in NL last week, E-Bike Centrum, de elektrische fietsenzaak van Nederland, Belgie en Duitsland. , he just have returned a batch of 12 Schwinn bikes to the supplier and don't want to see them anymore. By the way over the past years before he started selling bikes this year, we was organising tests for pedelecs and write about them in the dutch bike magazine each year.

 

Now back to 8Fun motor, we still use them on the Quando but obviously our new motor that appears on all our other models now - Torq, Sprint, Forte, Forza with option for Disc brake mounts are in many ways a lot better. More details to follow.

 

W W Ching

Thanks for that information Mr Ching, I've long been of the opinion that the Tongxin motor was suspect and has a flawed drive design.

 

We were told of your new high torque motor, but there's little wrong with the 8fun Quando motor anyway. Tim Snaith of 50cycles tried my Q bike (Quando with gears etc) for the first time the other day and liked it's performance. He then saw me stop up a 22% (1 in 4.5) hill and then do a standing start and accelerate with ease while sitting on the saddle and speaking to him. I've even climbed a short 30% (1 in 3.3) with it.

 

If you ever have the spare capacity to make the Quando with gears, you'd have the uncontested champion hill climbing e-bike, and there's a big market in our hilly areas for that sort of bike.

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I read a blog of the Melbourne-Sydney run, from what I remember everyone was keen to ride the Schwinn, no doubt due to the hype surrounding it, but few people got a chance due to the time it spent undergoing repairs. I didn't realise the so called "protanium" motor was the Tongxin, it makes sense now though, given the small size of it.

 

I have a Tongxin it the back of my garage, it's denstined to become the generator for a portable wind turbine, when I get round to it.

 

I have a Tongxin it the back of my garage, it's denstined to become the generator for a portable wind turbine, when I get round to it.

 

That's great use for it Ian, smooth power takeups with wind drive shouldn't cause that roller drive any problems.

 

Re: the Schwinn, I somehow doubt it will ever be fit for market. Even if they do sort out the control problems, high gearing that roller drive in a 28" wheel with 36 volt power is always going to cause it to slip increasingly until failure.

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I think the Suzhou EBM02 is the motor used in the eZee Torq and Quando models, in both front and rear wheel forms.

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I've got the same motor then. Mine had an 8Fun marking on it. It's a good motor, very powerful at 36V. Don't bother with 24V though as it's gutless.

Strangely, while the photo of the EBM2 looks identical to the Torq motor, the scale drawing looks different and and the dimensions show a larger diameter. 178mm pcd for the spoke holes as opposed to about 135mm on the Torq.

As Wai Won said, they don't use the 8fun now, except in the Quando, so perhaps the spec has changed Ian. I don't remember him saying the source of the new Torq motor, just it was their own, so perhaps that same company are making it for them.

.

The drawings are mixed up, the EBM03 has a drawing which belongs to the 02.

I blame the confusion on Chinese website designers

The drawings are mixed up, the EBM03 has a drawing which belongs to the 02.

I blame the confusion on Chinese website designers

 

Thanks Ian, everything they do is full of pitfalls, a bit like their random colour coding!

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The motor we use on all the eZee bikes is now produced in house, with the exception of the Quando which is 8Fun. '8' in chinese in "Ba". The 8Fun motor is of course not bad and it has brought some level of success for us when it was used in the Torq. As you all realised the Torq is highly gear and meant for speed, and the style generally for more athletic person that when he hits a grade he would be strong enough for power augmentation.

 

As anyone with experience with industrial equipment will know, if the electric motor would to start with a high load assuming all the electrical protections are in and working well, those noise and vibrations are always worrying. A lot of time customers trying out the Torq would ask about it. This is one issue I overcome by using this new motor.

 

The next matter is that, competition comes to know about the 8Fun motor and uses it, I have to move one or more steps ahead.

 

Then, the motor alone does not determine the performance of the bike. The motor is the heart but the controller is the brain. The controller on eZee is again entirely our own, although manufacturing is out sourced.

 

Wai Won

The next matter is that, competition comes to know about the 8Fun motor and uses it, I have to move one or more steps ahead.

 

I remember Flecc saying this was open source for the taking, so I thought I'd link it.

 

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/654-light-fastest-climbs-mountains-pretty-efficient-4.html#post8918

eZee Torq Publicity

 

The motor we use on all the eZee bikes is now produced in house, with the exception of the Quando which is 8Fun. '8' in chinese in "Ba". The 8Fun motor is of course not bad and it has brought some level of success for us when it was used in the Torq. As you all realised the Torq is highly gear and meant for speed, and the style generally for more athletic person that when he hits a grade he would be strong enough for power augmentation.

 

Wai Won

 

As we, who bought a Torq, came to realise....

Why was the Torq not publicised with these interesting and, for some would be riders, crucial facts concerning their performance and the amount of energy that was required to get them to do so?

"Highly geared"......"meant for speed".... "for more athletic person"..."he would be strong enough".

I don't recall any of those caveats on the 50Cycles web site written in praise of the Torq. All there was, apart from the detailed technical specification and that was vague in arguably the most important detail, was a glorification of what it achieved at the 2006 Presteigne 'Rally' and even then I had to write (e-mail) to David Henshaw of AtoB after I had bought a Torq to understand why my Torq performed so differently from the two that were ridden in that 'rally' and reported upon. It was revealed that it was an unrestricted pre-production model not legal to be ridden on the roads in the UK.

Quote from 50Cycles website that is still published:

"Winning rider David Henshaw (left, lifting the trophy) of A to B magazine rode the Torq around the course with steely determination, completing 23 laps and a total distance of 22.06 miles, with a top speed of 25.3 mph on the home straight. Far from being a souped-up model, the winning bikes were regular Torqs, identical to those used by customers up and down the UK.

 

Ken Ching (pictured right), from eZee, travelled from Germany to attend the event and took third place on our second Torq. While David lead the pack from the front, Ken took a more tactical approach, climbing through the rankings as the rally progressed and other machines faded, before storming to the front on the last few laps.

 

Even Ken Ching was involved.

Peter

Pete,

 

You are quite right; the information about how the Torq compares with others and the market its suited for was not well presented. But this forum was very useful for me and did explain it.

 

I am also very pleased to see you joining in, Mr Ching.

 

Nick

Mr. Wai Won where can i buy your drive system for my recumbent bike?

 

Hello Mr. Wai Won,

 

thank you Mr. Wai Won for the Information about the motor.

 

I am cycling with recumbent bikes and like to attach an elektric system to the recumbent bike. So i am searching for drive systems which can be bought without buying the whole bike.

If an e-bike has interesting performance then it is often not possible to buy the electric drive system (motor+controller+needed accessories).

A sample: I have not found a possibility to buy the panasonic drive system (the system is in flyer or kalkhoff bikes).

 

Mr Wai Won you talk about your new motor and your new controller. Very interesting to hear but ... is this drive system available to buy for me (and if i am successfully my recumbent bike friends will have that system too)

 

Luke

Luke,

 

Pls write to me at ezeebike@gmail.com

 

W W

Peter,

 

The eZee Torqs used in the Presteigne event were normal regular production units. In those it was possible to remove a connection and de-restrict the speed limit for the motor. At this time I hope everyone should reserve their judgment and not take all these essays from test ride commentors even if they are the most honest genuine experts as universal truth. Every one has their bias to some degree. Example, I have great respect for David Henshaw AtoB, but when I read his report for the Brompton and Nano motor, I have to shake my head in grief, the Nano TongXin motor and small battery pack almost becomes a miracle, simply because he has such great love for the Brompton. I don't blame him, he is just writing what he believed in. The same with all those comments on the Kalhoff, those who have an affair with the Giant Lafree Twist Comfort or what-ever will still thinks the power is incredible but really the power and range is coming from their legs and their mind set to it.

 

W W Ching

Edited December 25, 200718 yr by WaiWonChing

if the power is from their legs,surely this is a good thing,i for one, want assistance to my own power, mainly for steep hills.if a cyclist just wants power and speed, then a scooter or motorbike is a better way, of acheiving this.

I side with fishingpaul on this Mr Ching, and I think you miss the point of why so many of us like the Panasonic system.

 

Time after time, people have posted in here that they enjoy cycling and just want a bit of help on hills etc, but not high power and weight. They want a bike that still rides like the ordinary bike they've always enjoyed.

 

As good as your bikes are, they just don't do that. Like all hub motor bikes, they either operate like motor vehicles on a throttle, while accompanied by pedalling, or they operate on a pedelec system that is vastly inferior to the Panasonic one, supplying power in a fashion that isn't well related to the cycling effort.

 

Each type of bike has it's own value for different likes and uses, but you make a big mistake in repeatedly inferring that those of us who like the Panasonic system must be stupid or ignorant.

 

We're not. We are well aware of the system's power input, we've ridden them for years after all, more than you've done. We just enjoy true cycling like all cycling enthusiasts, and like the way in which the Panasonic system doubles the power of each pedal stroke while remaining true to pure cycling, not in any way a motor vehicle.

 

On the newest units, the fact that there is now a switchable higher power mode which, despite your protestations, gives a very real boost to the power provided on each pedal stroke, is now an added benefit while still retaining the same cycling quality.

 

In addition, as you've conceded in part, there's the little matter of quality and reliability, the Panasonic powered bikes being the most dependable and reliable of any e-bikes in any road and weather conditions.

 

And as if all this is not enough, the central power unit and battery makes the bike far better balanced and gives the considerable benefit of normal cycle wheels with correspondingly easy puncture repairs and tube and tyre replacements.

 

Of course the extra range comes from our cycling input, that's the whole point, a bicycle that's efficient enough to use our cycling input more effectively than hub motor bikes do. It's got nothing to do with us imagining power, and for you to say so is insulting.

 

Instead of this recent regular attack on the competition which does you no credit, surely it would be better if you concentrated on further improvements in your own bikes to match at least some of the qualities I speak of? We would all really welcome that.

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Edited December 26, 200718 yr by flecc

I'll also side with Fishingpaul and Flecc.

 

I think the Ezee range has a lot of strengths but the key area where it appears not to score as highly is quality of the cycling experience and ability to enhance rather than replace the power of the rider. The Ezee bikes seem to me to be aiming for the light moped / cruiser model, with a powerful motor but reduced cycling qualities. The changes to the new Torq strengthened my view of this. While there's nothing wrong with that; there is clearly a market for a quality high-powered cruiser style bike. However, there are other segments of the market containing customers who are looking for much more of the 'enhanced cycling' model.

 

The Panasonic motor clearly delivers that, hence its success.

 

My short ride yesterday on my Tongxing powered bike showed me that it gives an experience of that sort too. We were all very sceptical of the AtoB review of the Brompton Nano, which uses the Tongxin motor, many of us pointing out that the rider was spending most of the time cycling above the cut-out speed of the motor. Riding the Tongxin yesterday, I was able to do the same, and it brought it home to me that that is just the point, as on brushless hub motor powered bikes, you simply can't cycle with pedal power above the cut-off speed. The motor resistance is too high. This is the case on my Powacycle and Wisper, and i've read others say the same of Ezee bikes such as the Torq. You could do this on my old Powabyke, which has a brushed motor - and that made it a better cycling experience. I'm sure you can on other brushed motors such as Heinzmann, and probably the Ezee Liv - which its owners seem to rave about.

 

So, Mr Ching, I think what you say is valid but only for part of the market. There is a significant segment that actually wants what the Panasonic and Tongxin deliver better than a higher powered brushless hub motor in a cruiser style bike can. Maybe we just need to buy other products, but if I were you and were looking to add to my existing range, this would be the obvious gap I would look to fill!

 

So, Mr Ching, I think what you say is valid but only for part of the market. There is a significant segment that actually wants what the Panasonic and Tongxin deliver better than a higher powered brushless hub motor in a cruiser style bike can. - - - - - - - - - - - - but if I were you and were looking to add to my existing range, this would be the obvious gap I would look to fill!

 

And that of course is exactly what 50cycles did, fill the gap Frank speaks of with the Kalkhoff-Panasonic brand, complementing the eZee brand to provide a more complete range of electric bike types to suit both types of customer.

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What's really needed is intelligent pedelec control, I think, much as was discussed on another thread here. I'm trying to find a way to do this at the moment. What I hope to achieve is an add-on control system that can make any suitable motor behave in a fairly similarly to the way I believe the Panasonic system does.

 

The key seems to be getting a simple way to measure pedal torque and timing, without using one of the "sprung bottom bracket" pedelec systems. Non-contact chain tension sensing seems a reasonably good way to do this.

 

If a controller kit was available that did what I'm trying to do I'm sure it would be popular, as I doubt many of us really want the hassle of a throttle control.

 

Jeremy

I agree Jeremy, such a control could greatly improve some hub motors, though many might need redesign of their planetary gears to withstand the power pulsing stresses. The helical gears in the Panasonic unit are beautifully made motor cycle like precision parts probably for just this reason:

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/flecc/images/gears_01.jpg

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Edited December 26, 200718 yr by flecc