Hello and greetings from sunny Paris to everyone

 

It has been a long time I haven't written on the forum (although I've been reading with interest:)).

 

I'm in a need of little of your help with my Pro connect (Panasonic crank drive 2010 version)

 

From this spring the motor of my bike has developed a sound like something is rubbing against one another or against the walls inside of the unit. The rubbing sound ceases instantly when the power is cut off, but is especially heard under load and when reducing the cycling cadence. It has nothing to do with transmission, as I've changed all of it a couple of times since then.

 

Why I also think it is the motor problem, is because I read in some thread where Flecc explained that if grease is lacking on the nailon wheel then one of the indications is that if the bike is not used for some time, the problem might get worse before the grease is more evenly distributed when riding again. Moreover, with warmer whether, the problem should lessen (as it has a direct effect on grease distribution). Well, this is exactly what I'm experiencing as the rubbing almost disappeared during warm July and August days. But now, with chilling mornings, it has become back wit a vengeance and is appearently getting worse (and is especially strong if I haven't used the bike for a week or so). I've done around 10000-12000 km with my bike in all wheather (even in winter). I've used it in normal and high mode most of the time and more intensively than the average user as I have 41 teeth chain wheel, 11 teeth motor sprocket and 11-28 cassette installed on my bike which gives a max speed of 35-36 km/h.

 

 

I really don't want to break down the motor as I'm now out of the 2 year warranty. Therefore, I would like to know how complicated it is to open the motor and repair the problem? Although having owned my bike for more than 2 years I'm now doing all the repair work myself, I'm not really a hands-on person by profession So I don't know if I'm capable of greasing the nylon wheel (if this is really the issue) without breaking or messing something up:(

Therore I would like to ask your advice on the subject how to proceed.

 

Thanks and have a nice and sunny Sunday

 

Vaasa

Edited September 30, 201213 yr by vaasa

It is a major job since you need to remove the whole unit from the bike to complete it, and you need the instructions from my Panasonic support site.

 

Start by going to this OLD UNIT section on this link. Follow the instructions for splitting the crankcase and drawing the halves a little apart. Then jump to the NEW UNIT details on this link to see a photo of the large nylon wheel and motor shaft and you'll see that it will be easy to apply grease without fully separating the crankcase halves. Don't use excessive grease, large amounts are not necessary. A general purpose high temperature grease will be suitable.

 

Then reverse the procedure to reassemble and refit the unit. To remove the motor cowlings on a Kalkhoff the instructions on this link may help, though they are for the Agattu model.

.

Edited September 30, 201213 yr by flecc

do you have a version of sales of goods act in France? As in the UK you would be covered under sales of goods act as it is the LAW that goods must be "fit for purpose" & "of merchantable quality" for 6 years....

 

normally a standard letter available on internet with your details added, sent registered mail, giving 14 days is enough to galvanise their thought processes....most just take the warranty as law IT IS NOT, it means little and consumer rights far more robust....

 

do you have a citizens advice bureau, they should advise on consumer rights

Edited September 30, 201213 yr by eddieo

do you have a version of sales of goods act in France? As in the UK you would be covered under sales of goods act as it is the LAW that goods must be "fit for purpose" & "of merchantable quality" for 6 years....

 

normally a standard letter available on internet with your details added, sent registered mail, giving 14 days is enough to galvanise their thought processes....most just take the warranty as law IT IS NOT, it means little and consumer rights far more robust....

 

do you have a citizens advice bureau, they should advise on consumer rights

 

Eddie,sorry that is just not true but it is an often misunderstood part of this law.

The 6 year law states that a consumer can approach a retailer with a claim up to 6 years from the date of sale(5 years in Scotland). This does not mean that every product should last 6 years and in many cases it would be unreasonable to expect it,it is simply the legal cutoff date upon which a claim against an original manufacturing fault can be submitted.

Under the law the life of the product is subject to type,usage,'wear and tear',original purchase price and claims made by the seller. Because this law is subject to so much interpretation the government has issued the following guidelines

Goods have to be of a satisfactory quality if they reach the life and standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory,taking into account the purchase price and any description.

It is possible that a product with a warranty of 12 months may be refused a claim after 1 day if a reasonable person would consider that is the lifespan of the product considering the usage of the product- this is best described by one of my rally products. If you buy a steering rack that is destroyed by leaping 15 foot into the air and bought it only 7 days ago,you cannot expect any warranty. However if you used that same steering rack and used it only for street use then it could be expected to last for 12 months or maybe longer. But note any claim is against an original manufacturing fault not a fault which has developed due to usage,that is a very difficult criteria to satisfy.

This law is a 'can of worms' which really doesn't help the consumer or the retailer. It is about to be replaced by an EC law which will give 6 months claim back, in the first 6 months the retailer has to prove the fault is not a manufacturing fault,after 6 months it is the responsibility of the consumer to prove it is a manufacturing fault,that is the current situation in Germany.

Dave

Kudoscycles

sorry but everyone needs to realise a manufacturers warranty means absolutely nothing under consumer law.

 

anyone I know who have had to go to court have won. as all have had reasonable claims in the first place. most don't get to court as they get settled beforehand, as once retailer realises consumer not a mug they normally listen to reason

 

I buy a kudos bike - it falls to pieces after 2.2 years - you dont want to know - we go to court - I win - you get bad publicity..i'm sure it would not go that far as I presume you are reasonable......

Thank you flecc for a detailed advice. I'll see if I'm up to it. Maybe I'll try to ask somebody with knowledge in these matters to consult me while I'm doing it.

 

I buy a kudos bike - it falls to pieces after 2.2 years - you dont want to know - we go to court - I win - you get bad publicity..i'm sure it would not go that far as I presume you are reasonable......

 

The problem is that the bike is not falling to pieces... It would be difficult to prove that this rubbing noise is any issue at all (although from all the symptoms we now what it is). It might take another 6 months or even longer for the motor to stop working completely so that the braking down case could be established. Therefore I would have hard time asking to replace the motor under present conditions. My impression is that it also depends on the retailer. I've seen stories on this site how 50 cycles has even after warranty replaced the components. I'm not sure my retailer is up to it. My warranty ended in the beginning of September and I even tried to prolong it for 2 more years (like it is possible in Germany). But it was not possible in France.

 

Hopefully I'll be able to regrease the motor and it will take care of the issue.. I might even think of detaching the motor and sending it to my father in law (who unfortunately lives in another EU country) who is a retired mechanic with an extensive experience with all sorts of motors (including electric). Meanwhile I can ride my wife's KTM (also fitted with a new 36V Panasonic unit) as she only uses it during the summer.

 

Thanks again for all your advice and help!

sorry but everyone needs to realise a manufacturers warranty means absolutely nothing under consumer law.

 

anyone I know who have had to go to court have won. as all have had reasonable claims in the first place. most don't get to court as they get settled beforehand, as once retailer realises consumer not a mug they normally listen to reason

 

I buy a kudos bike - it falls to pieces after 2.2 years - you dont want to know - we go to court - I win - you get bad publicity..i'm sure it would not go that far as I presume you are reasonable......

 

Eddie,I am not talking about Kudos here I am referring to the law in general. As you say if the customer has a good case then any responsible retailer will settle without resort to the law-I just don't want you to give everyone the impression that they have 6 year warranty,if you read the law that is just not true.

If you abuse a bike and it falls to pieces then you are quite correct the warranty period is irrelevant,the reasonable usage factor comes into play and the reasonable life might be determined as only 1 month,it depends upon reasonable expectancy,in that circumstance the law works against you. If you notice the word reasonable keeps coming into play here but it's such an ambiguous word and open to interpretation by the judge on the day. The warranty period is not irrelevant because that is the period of time that the consumer and retailer have agreed is a reasonable period for the product to be fault free,the judge always takes that into account.

I have to say that Rally Design has never had to defend this law in 40 years of business,but personally I tried to use the law to make a claim on a manufacturing defect that was 12 months outside of warranty,the barristers opinion was not to bother,the law is almost impossible to prove.

Dave

Kudoscycles

Another possibility would be to write to Kalkhoff (derby cycles) directly and explain the issue. They might understand (especially as my bike is only a month out of warranty). I would even be willing to participate in the costs of the new motor unit (as opposed of bying a new 2000-2500 EUR bike) and they can have my old, still functioning unit for investigation. Some German retailer sold brandnew Panasonic 250W and 300W 26V units for around 500 EUR on ebay this spring. Unfortunately they do not seem to be available any more. As during this 2 years I've bought so many accessories for my bike (including a new 18Ah battery this winter), I'm really not willing to buy a new one for another 2 years.

 

May be somebody from 50 Cycles can advise me who to contact from Kalkhoff (Derby Cycles) side?

Edited September 30, 201213 yr by vaasa

Another possibility would be to write to Kalkhoff (derby cycles) directly and explain the issue. They might understand (especially as my bike is only a month out of warranty). I would even be willing to participate in the costs of the new motor unit (as opposed of bying a new 2000-2500 EUR bike) and they can have my old, still functioning unit for investigation. Some German retailer sold them for around 500 EUR on ebay this spring. Unfortunately they do not seem to be available any more. As during this 2 years I've bought so many accessories for my bike (including a new 18Ah battery this winter), I'm really not willing to buy a new bike for another 2 years.

 

May be somebody from 50 Cycles can advise me who to contact from Kalkhoff (Derby Cycles) side?

 

Vaasa,apologise that I may have missed in your posting,but who did you buy the bike from?

Are you saying that a replacement new motor is euro 500?

I cannot speak for Kalkhoff but communicating with big companies such as this is invariably quite difficult.

This is the problem of buying these expensive bikes,the German system seems to be designed around replacing these bikes after 3 years,most are bought on a 3 year lease with a maintenance contract,the high cost of parts on these bikes really compels the consumer to replace the bike every 3 years ,German customers I have spoke to seem to accept this.

However,the big German retailers must have thousands of trade in bikes-what happens to these bikes? Probably crushed. They must have almost no value. My suggestion is to see whether you can buy an ex trade in bike with a dud battery but good motor,you could cannibalise such a bike to keep yours on the road, Now there is a good idea,breakers yard for old e-bikes!!!!!

Dave

Kudoscycles

Vaasa,apologise that I may have missed in your posting,but who did you buy the bike from?

Are you saying that a replacement new motor is euro 500?

 

I've bought it from the biggest retailer here in France.

Yes the cost for the replacement unit is 500 EUR as you can see from the

link]Panasonic Mittelmotor f. e-bikes / Pedelec 26 V 300 Watt f. Kalkhoff, Raleigh, | eBay. The link is for 300W motor but they also sold 250 W for the same price. Unfortunately, they do not seem to sell these units any more. It is a respectable Ebike shop in Germany who sold these units via ebay. I know a person here in Paris who replaced his motor in such a way.

Edited September 30, 201213 yr by vaasa

Vassa,I feel for your situation. Will the retailer give you a good part exchange,especially as that new battery will have some life left in it. The danger is that you throw good money after bad,especially as you admit the bike has had a hard life. Unless you can pick up a cheap new motor,I think I would keep using it until it expires completely and then look around for a cheaper replacement.

What this endorses is asking how much are the cost of replacement batteries and major parts prior to buying the bike. Kudos charges £100.00 for a new motor laced into a 26 inch wheel,new batteries average about £200.00,there is no pressure to change a bike whatever part may fail in the future.

Dave

Kudoscycles

This might be totally irrelevant but worth a try.

 

I had a rubbing / binding noise coming from the area of the motor on my bike and I convinced myself that it was a bearing inside the motor case, particularly as it only happened with the motor switched on. I removed the plastic chain guard to try and improve access / diagnosis and the noise went away. It turned out to be the chain wheel catching very slightly on the chain guard. There is a degree of "float" on the chain wheel on these units and turning the power on /off just caused it to move enough to catch. It might be worth trying the bike with the chain guard removed before pulling the motor apart.

 

I can't believe that these bikes only have an intended three year life and that there is a big heap of 3+ year old bikes somewhere in The Father Land awaiting extermination. My Kalkhoff is now over four years old and I would say that it has had far more than average use over those four years. The original 10 Ah Panasonic battery still indicates 5 LEDs on the capacity / condition test and I can get 40+ miles out of it. The only slight worries that I have had with the bike have been the rubbing noise mentioned above and a noisy / clunky / slipping hub gear. The gear problem seemed to right itself without intervention from me and has been fine for the last 500 miles. I think it's wrong to suggest that these bikes are only lasting 3 years and to somehow use this doubtful fact to encourage people to buy a bike from the cheaper end of the market.

 

If I had used a cheap bike to the same extent that I have used my Kalkhoff, I think that I would have got through several of them by now. It just goes to show how valid the, "buy cheap buy twice" statement is. If you are going to be doing a lot of mileage and want to rely on the bike for something like commuting, you may as well spend the cash, buy something of quality, enjoy the quality and not have to spend more money on failed cheap batteries or monkey-metal bits and bobs. The total outlay over a protracted period probably isn't too different.

Edited October 1, 201213 yr by tillson

Indeed, these Panasonic units last for many years and are far more reliable than most hub drive setups. The majority of the original version are still running fine at up to 11 years old since their introduction and the later unit is potentially even more reliable.

 

I can confirm that the recommended retail price for a new unit is €500, but of course that is a complete package with controller, torque sensor, integral bottom bracket etc all inside and new chainwheel and motor sprocket fitted. Obviously no comparison with the price of a hub motor alone, which will complete far less miles than the Panasonic unit normally does before needing major attention.

.

Edited October 1, 201213 yr by flecc

if they weren't any good surely there would be loads available for spares. Not my cup of chi but have always thought of them as reliable transport....

Edited October 1, 201213 yr by eddieo

if they weren't any good surely there would be loads available for spares

 

I respect the quality of a Kalkhoff,have ridden many of these high end German bikes and they are certainly the BMW or Mercedes of the e-bike world. It's really the battery life and cost of replacement that makes them disposable machines,particularly in Germany. Sit in a pavement cafe in Bavaria and every bike,sports or e-bike,looks brand new.

If you look at the economics of the German bike industry. The retail price is set high,say euro 2500,the dealer gets euro 800-1000 profit. He gives away half that profit for a trade in on a 3 year old bike,say euro 500,a replacement battery can be euro 650-800. So at replacement battery time it looks a good deal to get a new bike,usually with a new leasing contract,new maintenance contract. The technology of e-bikes is moving so fast that to a German's technocrat thoughts a 3 year old bike is positively ancient.

They have same attitude to their cars,so a replacement cost of euro 2500 on the bike looks small change to a euro 50000 Mercedes.

What happens to these trade in bikes? You never see secondhand bikes in a German retailer.

Most English people have a different attitude to their bike purchase,they see £2000 plus as a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a bike,even £1000 plus is thought of as extravagant,the euro 650 replacement battery cost is a rip-off. So the dealer just does not have the profit margin to do the generous trade ins,so the 3 year exchange is not possible.

Interesting which system pedelecs members would prefer?

Dave

Kudoscycles

Vassa

have you ever considered to post your problem on the german pedelec-forum?

Pedelec-Forum

 

Maybe there are still some replacement-motors available from Germany or someone there might help you further - they're quite helpfull on that forum and there are also a few people posting in english (and of course getting a response)

maybe a business idea...going around German dealers picking up 2 year old bikes and selling them on here.......Oh! are they RHD?

maybe a business idea...going around German dealers picking up 2 year old bikes and selling them on here.......Oh! are they RHD?

The camber shims will need replaced, in that case.

<sucks teeth>

Can't get 'em any more, Guv.

maybe a business idea...going around German dealers picking up 2 year old bikes and selling them on here...

 

There used to be a big business in selling s/h Japanese motorbikes in the UK. Since the Japanese were always obsessed with having the latest model their s/h bikes were often just a year old and very low mileage.

 

Problem for high end e-bikes is the replacement battery cost though, the s/h bike has to exceptionally cheap to make buying s/h worthwhile.

I'll try to take the chainguard off as suggested by Tillson and see if this is the issue. Although the rubbing/grinding/binding noise seems to be worse in the morning (with cold temperature) and gradually disappear during the day. This would indicate a grease/bearing problem (as the grease would distribute itself more evenly with use and warmer weather). On the other hand, it mostly becomes apparent when I'm applying a lot of force on the pedals (especially if slowing down the cadence during climbing), so the chain-wheel might indeed be in a different position in that case. I will use my bike again on Wednesday (I just came home from my commute of 46 km). I'll tell you how it goes.

 

If I do not find any solution or the problem persists, I might post also on the German forum. Thanks for the advice!

lots of dealers contribute on German forum and it is very active.. I am sure someone may come up with a unit or how to get one...If it come to that.

lots of dealers contribute on German forum and it is very active.. I am sure someone may come up with a unit or how to get one...If it come to that.

 

Thanks Eddie, I saw from the other thread that you were looking for a new Panasonic unit for a member at German ebay. I guess it's me for whom you were looking. If it's the case, I really appreciate it

Panasonic Electric bike | eBay

Panasonic Electric bike | eBay

 

 

I think that motor precedes vaasa's. Its a nice find though and will probably be of interest to someone with one of the older Giant Lafree bikes.

Panasonic Electric bike | eBay

 

As Tillson says, it's the old unit and no use to Vaasa.

 

Also beware. During that production a number of these were produced which had an inherent circuit fault which meant they usually failed to low power Eco mode only. When Panasonic and Giant realised this they sent out free replacement units to dealers holding the Lafree bikes in stock with instructions to swap them over and scrap the potentially faulty unit since the fault was unrepairable. (yes it really is.)

 

There is a very high probability that this is one of the duds, people don't buy new £500 units and then not use them. I bought one of these to use as a photo model for my Panasonic support website and after for spares to help repair any mechanical faults and have since used up all the useful bits. It's motor sprocket and shaft formed the pattern for the CNC machined sprockets that A to B sell now.

 

That unit, identical to this one, cost me £16 on ebay, so £100 or more is potentially steep.

.

Edited October 2, 201213 yr by flecc