David

Don't get me wrong as this isn't a criticism but a question.

 

Firstly I think its a stunner, but at that price I find it hard to see your target market. A roadie will spend that on his road bike. Would he want an ebike? I doubt it

Would someone of my age want one - yes - for its aesthetic looks . But at my age I need to sit upright. And at my age practicality takes over .So no its not for me

 

So it brings me back to what is your target market. I'm sure you have done extensive market research amongst your dealers .

 

I still think it looks lovely and will be a great ambassador for the Wisper band. But for the mainstay market, and with your commitment with Shimano, a bike along the lines of the Sven bike would fit your stable and generate more sales and profits .

 

All imho and meant in a positive manner.

 

In this market the Wisper is a bargain. Cytronex have long been successfully selling exotic e-road bikes, adding their motor systems to the best road bikes:

 

At £10.5 k here's one of them

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Ok. I'm educated .Wow what a cost .

Ok. I'm educated

Me too.

Some people spend an awful lot of dosh to hide the fact that they need a little help now and then.

It’s all about holding back the aging process for as long as possible and giving people who don’t have time to train the opportunity to enjoy road biking next to the younger and/or fitter.

 

Money is secondary to the benefits offered to those who can afford the ticket.

 

It’s all a part of the same emotional drive that finds people spending money on supercars, high fashion and even cosmetics.

 

All the best, David

I don't think the price is an issue the target market are used to spending this sort of money on a bike. The issue is not the bike but the UK speed restriction. I train a group of "average" triathletes who on group rides are averaging over 20 mph. In this company a 12kg road bike is really heavy so while you'll get a boost on the hills for the rest of the time above 15.5 mph you're pedaling a relatively heavy 12kg while the people around you are on sub 9kg bikes. Just to be clear I'm not running the bike down at all, its a great bit of kit but IMO the law makes it too slow for its target market

I don't think the price is an issue the target market are used to spending this sort of money on a bike. The issue is not the bike but the UK speed restriction. I train a group of "average" triathletes who on group rides are averaging over 20 mph. In this company a 12kg road bike is really heavy so while you'll get a boost on the hills for the rest of the time above 15.5 mph you're pedaling a relatively heavy 12kg while the people around you are on sub 9kg bikes. Just to be clear I'm not running the bike down at all, its a great bit of kit but IMO the law makes it too slow for its target market

 

Spot on. When my riding companion reached 9-years old I could no longer keep up with her on the flat with no motor power above 16 mph.

It is a real issue Stumpi, we are entering the market fully aware of the limitations imposed upon us by the powers that be.

 

It's very premature to mention however a group of us in LEVA-EU, the same group that are fighting the EBMA in respect of Anti Dumping are putting together a paper to argue with the Commission regarding the restrictions currently placed on EPACS. Still very much similar to the man with the red flag walking in front of the first motor cars! The current limits were championed by the BA CONIBI and the EBMA, whilst smaller groups such as BEBA fought tooth and nail to try and secure more sensible measures.

 

Now the rest of the cycle industry have a lot of skin in the eBike market, their stance will no doubt have changed, I am sure they are kicking themselves. Hopefully they too see that the "man with the red flag" is now unnecessary.

 

We are asking to up the speed limit to 20mph, and increase the MAX power to 2kW. This will enable cargo bikes to do their stuff and will keep the bikes within the city 20mph limits. We are formulating a plan for acceleration limits which would be far more meaningful than power limits. It will take a long time but we have started. As always we are looking for others to join in and help with costs and work load!

 

All the best, David

We are asking to up the speed limit to 20mph, and increase the MAX power to 2kW

that's just plain wrong.

From our perspective, 15mph assist speed limit is right for the vast majority of our less than perfect roads and already, a significant percentage of EAPC riders derestrict their bikes. Increasing the assist limit would not cut that percentage.

I totally disagree with you Woosh. We all get fed up with hitting the 15.5mph buffer. Even old duffers like me would be more comfortable at 17-18 mph and Cargo bikes at 15.5mph will hold up traffic causing a rolling road block.

 

If people can change their ebike's settings, which as you know under the new EN14194 regs even the possibility of derestricting will put the bike outside of the scope of EN15194, an ebike with a true Nominal 250W motor will not get up to much more than 19mph.

 

If the bike can be legally ridden at 20mph and the motor can handle that speed on prolonged inclines without overheating, the number of people wanting to flout the law will be diminished dramatically.

Edited April 27, 20187 yr by Wisper Bikes

nothing stops people who need a cargo bike to get a number plate and pay insurance. We need to remind ourselves that EAPC is a concession so we can share in the advantages available to non-assisted bikers.

When we get older, it's not just the muscles weaken, our brain goes slow, our eyes can't read the road sign as quickly etc..

I don't think the price is an issue the target market are used to spending this sort of money on a bike. The issue is not the bike but the UK speed restriction. I train a group of "average" triathletes who on group rides are averaging over 20 mph. In this company a 12kg road bike is really heavy so while you'll get a boost on the hills for the rest of the time above 15.5 mph you're pedaling a relatively heavy 12kg while the people around you are on sub 9kg bikes. Just to be clear I'm not running the bike down at all, its a great bit of kit but IMO the law makes it too slow for its target market

 

Spot on. When my riding companion reached 9-years old I could no longer keep up with her on the flat with no motor power above 16 mph.

 

Three problems militating against a higher assist speed though.

 

First it will always be difficult for legislators to accept those who ride road bikes need assistance, seeing the speeds that these are commonly ridden at. Their aim is to get more regular utility cycling instead of car use, rather than assisting the sporting weekender.

 

Second that 25 kph/ 15.5 mph is where registered motor vehicles start at ( L1e-A ). That is a real block against higher unregistered motorised speeds.

 

Third is that to be stealthy these assisted road bikes generally have batteries too small for full time assistance on roadie journeys. They are often only intended for hill assistance. One very experienced pedelecs member buying a Cytronex and riding it normal pedelec fashion only just managed a 12 mile range. He didn't keep it long!

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We are asking to up the speed limit to 20mph, and increase the MAX power to 2kW. This will enable cargo bikes to do their stuff and will keep the bikes within the city 20mph limits.

 

As per my previous post, the implication is that this will mean registration and all that implies, since 25kph / 15.5 mph / 1000 watts is where registration of motor vehicles starts at.

 

You may be aware that some while ago the European Parliament discussed the power limit of EAPCs for similar reasons and proposed removal of all power limits, leaving it to designers and the 25 kph limit. The EU Commission rejected the proposal.

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nothing stops people who need a cargo bike to get a number plate and pay insurance. We need to remind ourselves that EAPC is a concession so we can share in the advantages available to non-assisted bikers.

When we get older, it's not just the muscles weaken, our brain goes slow, our eyes can't read the road sign as quickly etc..

 

You would be surprised I am sure but some of us are happy for our "EN15194" bikes to go at 20mph anyway. What we are suggesting is to legalise what is happening already. The difference between 15.5 and 20 is not so great that it will cause problems. In my opinion it will make ebikes safer.

As Flecc quite correctly points out, the limiting factor is currently range vs speed.

The difference between 15.5 and 20 is not so great that it will cause problems. In my opinion it will make ebikes safer.

do we need to remind ourselves that the law lets us ride as fast as we like, but not assisted at above 25kph. There is absolutely no fair argument to support an e-biker overtaking a normal bike at for example 32 kph with a motor.

As per my previous post, the implication is that this will mean registration and all that implies, since 25kph / 15.5 mph / 1000 watts is where registration of motor vehicles starts at.

 

You may be aware that some while ago the European Parliament discussed the power limit of EAPCs for similar reasons and proposed removal of all power limits, leaving it to designers and the 25 kph limit. The EU Commission rejected the proposal.

.

 

Hi Flecc, I do remember, we did manage to get rid of weight limits though. It's going to be tough and I doubt 1000Wh nominal will ever get through. If we need to register these bikes then that's good for us as long as it's transparent and easy to do. With the big players from Europe on board we may get somewhere. HS Pedelecs are a massive success everywhere that registration is simple and straight forward. We are looking for a watered down version of the full HS category all over Europe and the UK. EBikes are not mopeds, although one of the points on the agenda is to open the throttle again!

 

All the best, David

do we need to remind ourselves that the law lets us ride as fast as we like, but not assisted at above 25kph. There is absolutely no fair argument to support an e-biker overtaking a normal bike at for example 32 kph with a motor.

 

Your argument was you didn't want bikes to go fast due to the state of our roads, then "When we get older, it's not just the muscles weaken, our brain goes slow, our eyes can't read the road sign as quickly etc." now you don't want ebikes to overtake vanilla bikes. Surely you know from anecdotal evidence here that they already do?

 

You are mistaken, the law does not allow us to ride as fast as we like, speed limits apply to bicycles too.

 

All the best, David

If we need to register these bikes then that's good for us as long as it's transparent and easy to do. With the big players from Europe on board we may get somewhere. HS Pedelecs are a massive success everywhere that registration is simple and straight forward. We are looking for a watered down version of the full HS category all over Europe and the UK.

 

I agree that accepting a form of simple registration (probably insurance too) is the best way forward to achieve change.

 

It's best in such a campaign to be ready for the counter arguments you might get raised against you:

 

First is that the Speed pedelec class hasn't proved popular, only achieving 1% of pedelec sales and with only Germany and very belatedly The Netherlands accepting it in the EU. France did plan to join them January 2017 but then scrapped the plan.

 

Second is the way the German market has undermined the case for more power. Following realisation that 250 watts was insufficient for the Speed pedelec class, it was raised to 500 watts and a flush of 500 watt rated machines quickly appeared. Since then they've largely disappeared, the market settling for 350 watts as the best power/range combination.

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The new bike looks good, although it is not without its competition.

 

Cube offer Fazua bikes for about the same price - the £4K one in the link is lower spec.

 

As with Wisper's eMTBs, Wisper seem to think the customer will pay as much for a Wisper bike as for one of the established premium brands.

 

Strikes me as a brave strategy.

 

https://www.evanscycles.com/cube-agree-hybrid-c-62-sl-disc-2018-electric-road-bike-EV318118

Wholly molly I bet they don't sell many of these https://www.evanscycles.com/cube-agree-hybrid-c-62-slt-disc-2018-electric-road-bike-EV318119

 

half price offer soon I bet

The 25km/h cutoff make sense on busy european city cyclesays at rushhour. 25km/h is about average for unassisted commuter bikes. I can see why europeans came up with that speed. In states where cycleways are less common 32km/h is lot safer especially on road.

 

Problem is having fast bikes using offroad cycleways especially ones shared with walkers. There is no easy answer.

Problem is having fast bikes using offroad cycleways especially ones shared with walkers. There is no easy answer.

the problem is the speed limiter is a blunt instrument. If the road or cycletrack is totally empty, I would have no objection that e-bikers have a bit of harmless fun.

As with Wisper's eMTBs, Wisper seem to think the customer will pay as much for a Wisper bike as for one of the established premium brands.

 

Strikes me as a brave strategy.

 

There is a strong counter argument though. Established road bike brands know little or nothing about e-bikes, while Wisper are highly experienced in this area.

 

Older roadies going electric will want to be reassured more about the electrical aspect than the bicycle side they already know well.

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Established road bike brands know little or nothing about e-bikes,

that's over simplified.

that's over simplified.

 

For you and me yes, but not for the average roadie going electric.

 

And none of them have Wisper's one and half decades of e-experience.

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