May 20, 20196 yr Some folks appear to have missed the point of my experiment. I just wanted to see if it was possible to have my display show kph but actually be doing mph, simply out of curiosity and nothing more. I didn’t intend to raise the “legality “ issue, just thought some may find it interesting from an engineering / mechanical angle. I wish I’d never bothered starting this thread now. It's inevitable that legality will always be raised, even with an interesting and excellent experiment like yours. Many are genuinely interested in what the law actually is and whether they could enjoy such options. .
May 20, 20196 yr It is illegal to possess any fitted method under the rider's control that can increase the assist speed above 25 kph (15.5 mph), whether used or not. Such a machine is no longer an EAPC (Electric Assist Pedal Cycle) in law. It becomes a motor vehicle with all that implies. If you have the right knowhow and equipment, you can change the assist speed by software of just about any electric bike, including bikes with systems from Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha, Bafang, Wisper, Gocycle, etc. The question is what "under the rider's control" means. A simple on/off button is fairly clearly outlawed, but when you do it by settings, how many button presses is the limit? Another point is how anyone would know. If you've made a change that deceives the software by changing the speed signal device to wrongly represent the speed. The cut-off will still be apparent at the displayed 25 km/h, so no more questions.
May 20, 20196 yr Another point is how anyone would know. If you've made a change that deceives the software by changing the speed signal device to wrongly represent the speed. The cut-off will still be apparent at the displayed 25 km/h, so no more questions. By riding the bike over 15mph?
May 20, 20196 yr been riding my bike with a dongle for the last 5 years and no one gives a toss not even plod lol
May 20, 20196 yr By riding the bike over 15mph? How will they know what the speed is? It'll show 10mph at a true 15 mph and cut off power when the display shows 15 mph.
May 20, 20196 yr The question is what "under the rider's control" means. A simple on/off button is fairly clearly outlawed, but when you do it by settings, how many button presses is the limit? There's no question and no limit to button presses. These are not modifications, they are controls available to the rider, just like brake levers or light switches. As the DfT makes clear "strictly forbidden", that's quite emphatic. In any case, what's the point of arguing? Motor assisted over 15.5 mph is illegal, making an e-bike a motor vehicle in law. .
May 20, 20196 yr How will they know what the speed is? It'll show 10mph at a true 15 mph and cut off power when the display shows 15 mph. I very much doubt that they'd rely on the displayed speed. There are lots of ways of measuring speed, my iPhone has an app that tells me my speed for example. Having said that I can't see many police wanting to cycle along checking maximum assisted speeds of ebikes but that doesn't make these dongles acceptable. I know of people who've been drink driving for the last few decades and they'y got away with it, that doesn't make drink driving acceptable does is?
May 20, 20196 yr How will they know what the speed is? It'll show 10mph at a true 15 mph and cut off power when the display shows 15 mph. The vehicle inspectorate's simple time over distance check. 25 instead of 15.5 mph will be very easy to detect. .
May 20, 20196 yr Well personally I think it is a very clever mod and we should be praising the fact there are still people who like to tinker and discover things like this as this is how advancement in technology is made. We all know the legalities of 15.5mph so don't need too jump on soap boxes.
May 20, 20196 yr We all know the legalities of 15.5mph so don't need too jump on soap boxes. If only that was true. Unfortunately a very large number in here don't know the law, only today I've had to correct two false interpretations from experienced members. Hence the many inquiries, including in this thread, and answering them is not jumping on soap boxes. I really don't care what the authorities set to the law to, and I don't care whether anyone breaks the law or not. But if a question on it is asked I'll answer it and if someone posts false information on it I'll correct that. That's because everyone in here has the right to know what the EAPC law really is. .
May 20, 20196 yr Whilst I contributed to misunderstanding the motive for such engineering wizardry, I do admire the technical solution. And well done for finding 2 pulley wheels the exact ratio to convert km to miles
May 20, 20196 yr Unfortunately a very large number in here don't know the law, only today I've had to correct two false interpretations from experienced members. Just because you expressed an opinion, it doesn't mean that you corrected anyone. If what you said is true, just about every single ebike that you can buy in shops is illegal, since you can change the speed setting on any of them. They all have a back door into the speed setting if you know how to use it. So what is it, are they all illegal or not?
May 20, 20196 yr Just because you expressed an opinion, it doesn't mean that you corrected anyone. If what you said is true, just about every single ebike that you can buy in shops is illegal, since you can change the speed setting on any of them. They all have a back door into the speed setting if you know how to use it. So what is it, are they all illegal or not? I've already answered, they are illegal for the reason mentioned. I'm well aware what can be done in e-bike software and am more versed in pedelec law than anyone else in this forum. When I correct someone on this law it is not an opinion and I post the legal details why that is so. May I remind you that almost all the e-bikes sold in Great Britain from 10th November 2003 to 6th April 2015 were also illegal, not complying with the law, often in even more ways. So this new technical illegality is not at all unusual. Our pedelecs operate under an exemption from being considered motor vehicles and that exemption has certain requirements. One is that its motor must not be capable of propelling the machine at or above 25 kph. Here is the copy and pasted exemption (h) from the Two and Three Wheeled Type Approval Regulation 168/2013: "Pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h" Add to that clear law the DfT statement that any use of what they call an "off road button" to defeat the regulation is "strictly forbidden" and the legal position is abundantly clear. In the joint meeting when that was spelled out, the DfT were adamant that any method of defeating the assist speed limit is illegal. Since the DfT create all pedelec law for Great Britain I'm happy to take their word for it. Challenges like yours annoy me since they cause nothing but trouble, causing the uncertainty among members that leads to constantly repeated requests for clarification. Whether you like the law or not isn't relevant, it's very clear what the law is. .
May 20, 20196 yr go on ebay and find a diy kit you cant adjust the software Exactly, they are almost all illegal if the software to increase assist speed can be applied by the rider not requiring tools. .
May 20, 20196 yr Author And well done for finding 2 pulley wheels the exact ratio to convert km to miles I turned the pulleys from some nylon off cuts. now I’m thinking I’ll modify the design by scraping the existing sensor pulley and making two quickly interchangeable pulleys, one the same size as the wheel pulley to give a true speed display and cutoff and a second pulley, larger to deceive the controller as previously mentioned (for use on private land only ) I actually don’t often ride at full speed even in standard settings, preferring to save battery assistance for longer rides, hills, headwind and rough bridal ways. Most of my rides are solo and I see very few cars and even fewer pedestrians so I’m not putting the public at risk at any speed.
May 20, 20196 yr If I had the tooling available I make a new brake disk with a tooth gear outer edge. I would then move create and fit a similar pulley to yours but again with a tooth gear outer edge thus doing away with the need for a belt.
May 20, 20196 yr Author If I had the tooling available I make a new brake disk with a tooth gear outer edge. I would then move create and fit a similar pulley to yours but again with a tooth gear outer edge thus doing away with the need for a belt. Wow that’s a big project in more sense than one, just to loose the belt There’s no load on either pulley and an elastic band would do the job. The amount of work in making a toothed brake disc (effectively a circular saw blade) at 160mm, the corresponding gear would need to be 257.6mm dia (about the size of a dinner plate) We’d be calling you Rufus Roughcut and his Buzzwagon
May 20, 20196 yr Wow that’s a big project in more sense than one, just to loose the belt There’s no load on either pulley and an elastic band would do the job. The amount of work in making a toothed brake disc (effectively a circular saw blade) at 160mm, the corresponding gear would need to be 257.6mm dia (about the size of a dinner plate) We’d be calling you Rufus Roughcut and his Buzzwagon Good point, I didn’t say I had thought it through
May 20, 20196 yr Good point, I didn’t say I had thought it through It's a good job you didn't have the tooling available to make a new brake disk with a tooth gear outer edge then.
May 20, 20196 yr It's a good job you didn't have the tooling available to make a new brake disk with a tooth gear outer edge then. It’s a good job your not taking this a bit too seriously . Lighten up, this is supposed to be fun.
May 20, 20196 yr Whether you like the law or not isn't relevant, it's very clear what the law is. We all know what the law is as far as it's written. You didn't answer the question on whether a Bosch or Yamaha powered ebike would be illegal when you can change the speed limit by applying a simple procedure. I'm challenging your interpretation of the law because in a previous post, you implied that they would be illegal. My interpretation is that they are not illegal as long as you weren't riding the bike with it set illegally. I think it's you that's confusing and worrying people.
May 20, 20196 yr you can not change the software on a bosch bike the only way round this is to fit a dongle. if a bike has any way to change the speed limit in software it is not road legal if you use it or not it is classed as having a off road switch.
May 20, 20196 yr you can not change the software on a bosch bike the only way round this is to fit a dongle. if a bike has any way to change the speed limit in software it is not road legal if you use it or not it is classed as having a off road switch. You can change the speed with a simple push of a button without a dongle!
May 20, 20196 yr You can change the speed with a simple push of a button without a dongle! how you work that one out then?
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