Agreed, but you'll find that all these fires started by the e-car lithium batteries are Teslas which have caught fire several more times than the twice you mentioned. To give themselves a power density and range advantage they use very large numbers of close packed high density cells of the types we use in our e-bike batteries which are very unsuitable for safe e-car use. One model has 6,200 cells!

 

The launch of their latest model 3 using 21700 type cells* was repeatedly delayed by three years due to lithium battery fires destroying them before the model was finally released to the public.

 

Other makes haven't had these problems. The largest selling one and earliest affordable e-car is the Nissan Leaf which with some third of a million on the road sold during the last ten years has never had a lithium traction battery fire.

 

I carefully specified that exactly since one Leaf had a conventional car fire in it's normal lead-acid battery circuit which some have wrongly said was the traction battery, which was not in any way involved.

 

For further clarity the Leaf's lithium traction battery with its much smaller number of low density cells is exclusively used just for traction. For all the normal car electrical functions they use a normal car battery under the bonnet in conventional car battery circuitry. This as we know can cause under bonnet car fires in certain circumstances, but at least on an e-car there's no tank of fuel to add to the fire or ignite in a collision.

 

N.B.

 

* Announced by Samsung and LG Chem in 2015 for use in electric bikes. By January 2017, was being produced at Tesla Gigafactory 1 for the Tesla Model 3, reaching an annual production rate of 1.8 billion cells annually (20 GWh per year) by mid-2018, with a July 2019 Tesla forecast that they would ship 2 GWh of batteries in 2019.

 

Alarmingly these batteries when at end of Tesla car life are used in home powerwalls, and they are also installed new in powerwalls.

.

Basically, what you are describing is an e-battery form of Russian roulette!

Having a bike fire, which many YouTube videos show, is one thing, as you can easily get off and away from it generally.

But having an e-car battery fire and getting out of it, is a world of difference.......

I studied the market for electric cars, well before the (lack of) safety of the cells used became more apparent, and as I need a car that can travel over 1,000 Kms, without needing a recharge, I was not interested.

An electric car cannot pull my heavy caravan, so not interested.

Cars where the Air Con did not reduce the range.

Cars where the heater does not reduce the range.

Cars that after an average battery life are basically worthless after somewhere between 5 to 7 years, as a replacement battery costs more than the current value of the 6 year old car (or what it should have!) if the battery did not need replacing.....

Furthermore, I see a problem with reconditioned batteries, where someone, a company, rebuilds a battery with old and new cells, eventually fires will become a daily happening....

Cars that if they catch fire, I and my family must move damn quick to get out alive!

So electric cars are not for me! I see them as the very worst "CON" around at this time....

I expect more and more deaths due to battery fires in cars, over the next 10 years.

Andy

Basically, what you are describing is an e-battery form of Russian roulette!

Having a bike fire, which many YouTube videos show, is one thing, as you can easily get off and away from it generally.

But having an e-car battery fire and getting out of it, is a world of difference.......

I studied the market for electric cars, well before the (lack of) safety of the cells used became more apparent, and as I need a car that can travel over 1,000 Kms, without needing a recharge, I was not interested.

An electric car cannot pull my heavy caravan, so not interested.

Cars where the Air Con did not reduce the range.

Cars where the heater does not reduce the range.

Cars that after an average battery life are basically worthless after somewhere between 5 to 7 years, as a replacement battery costs more than the current value of the 6 year old car (or what it should have!) if the battery did not need replacing.....

Furthermore, I see a problem with reconditioned batteries, where someone, a company, rebuilds a battery with old and new cells, eventually fires will become a daily happening....

Cars that if they catch fire, I and my family must move damn quick to get out alive!

So electric cars are not for me! I see them as the very worst "CON" around at this time....

I expect more and more deaths due to battery fires in cars, over the next 10 years.

Andy

Electric cars clearly don't suit your needs but they are a perfect match for the needs of many plus those willing and able to adapt their lifestyles.

 

Why does that make them "the very worst CON around at this time"?

 

I think you need to do some proper research before coming out with such silly statements.

 

ebiker99

Basically, what you are describing is an e-battery form of Russian roulette!

Having a bike fire, which many YouTube videos show, is one thing, as you can easily get off and away from it generally.

But having an e-car battery fire and getting out of it, is a world of difference.......

I studied the market for electric cars, well before the (lack of) safety of the cells used became more apparent, and as I need a car that can travel over 1,000 Kms, without needing a recharge, I was not interested.

An electric car cannot pull my heavy caravan, so not interested.

Cars where the Air Con did not reduce the range.

Cars where the heater does not reduce the range.

Cars that after an average battery life are basically worthless after somewhere between 5 to 7 years, as a replacement battery costs more than the current value of the 6 year old car (or what it should have!) if the battery did not need replacing.....

Furthermore, I see a problem with reconditioned batteries, where someone, a company, rebuilds a battery with old and new cells, eventually fires will become a daily happening....

Cars that if they catch fire, I and my family must move damn quick to get out alive!

So electric cars are not for me! I see them as the very worst "CON" around at this time....

I expect more and more deaths due to battery fires in cars, over the next 10 years.

Andy

 

Yes you've expressed all this to me before, and I strongly disagree, especially since you are not sufficiently well informed due to being stuck with out of date information:

 

Other than the Tesla ones I've criticised above, their batteries are proving to be good for ten years so far.

 

They are not recelled for car use, they are safely used down to 75% capacity in a car, then fitted to powerwalls.

 

Air con, climate control and heating no longer drastically reduce range as they did in earlier days, due to using heat pumps now. 2 kW reduced to around 200 watts.

 

There are models with ranges of up to 500 miles now, and some of the new releases are sold with a choice of three ranges according to need.

 

The latest generation of ultra rapid chargers can add from 100 to 150 miles of charge in 15 minutes, hardly a problem after an up to 500 mile drive!

 

They can tow when designed to, two models today already. One has a 6.2 ton towing option and I doubt your caravan is that heavy.

 

However, I see e-cars killing off caravans to the delight of many other road users who don't see any sense in towing an alternative home. Your posted 800 kilometres tow is highly unusual and I'd have to search long and hard for others doing that. Walk around any very large car park and note how few cars have a towball fitted, also noting how most of them have obviously not been connected to anything in years. However I do think we will see some e-motorhomes before long since there's already fully electric buses. We have nearly three hundred in London and China has tens of thousands of them.

 

For sound reasons I expect to see far fewer deaths in e-cars than the norm for fossil fuelled ones. Today's e-cars are not a con, very far from it. They are a vast improvement over fossil fuelled cars in multiple ways and it would be difficult to think of a more stupid propulsion motor than an ic one. If you disagree, tell it to the train and tram operators.

 

You don't even begin to understand these things for reasons you won't know, due to your closed mind on this subject. You once told me never to tell you that you are wrong. On this subject you are spectacularly wrong.

 

Anyway, get used to them. From this year on you will see a huge expansion of e-cars on the roads, one country has already reached 52% of all new e-car registrations in the last couple of years. Our roads will thankfully become far more civilised and less dangerous than they are at present.

.

Edited March 17, 20206 yr by flecc

Just out of interest,

this guy has fitted 8 Leaf modules to a Flux e-scooter, 60v-ish? Lots of fabricating!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO08NL_J5vA.

 

And another has 7 modules make 48v with 14s BMS, 66ah? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05f-zqGdTBk.

 

Are these pouch cells? And reliable now?

Cheers.

since last year, I affix this label to our bikes/batteries:

 

 

I also post frequently about fire risks, charging, storage of e-bike batteries and recommend members to pay a little more for Samsung and Panasonic 18650 cells.

Do not store indoors?

I keep my Bosch battery indoors (ins cupboard) any time it's not on the bike. It's safer from theft than in a garage and stored at a better and more stable temperature range.

I would expect the chance of a 60-80% charged Bosch battery deciding to self-combust in the absence of fire or electrical input is so tiny I would be better worrying about things falling on my house from aircraft flying overhead.

 

Have you heard of ebike batteries self-combusting without fire or charge?

Electric cars clearly don't suit your needs but they are a perfect match for the needs of many plus those willing and able to adapt their lifestyles.

 

Why does that make them "the very worst CON around at this time"?

 

I think you need to do some proper research before coming out with such silly statements.

 

ebiker99

They can only be sold to people that do no personal research, are totally uninformed about the pros and cons (that word again!) of the current (pun intended!) battery chemistry and its pitfalls.

Combined with uninformed politicians trying to "jump on the bandwagon" of electric cars.

Which have been proven, if you know where and what to read, have a huge carbon footprint when being manufactured (forgotten/ignored by most!), actually greater than that of a modern petrol/diesel car, plus the fact that electricity today, still has a carbon footprint, that is admittedly getting smaller, but still there, even today!

Combined with the relatively short life of the huge and expensive battery, plus I would not want any of my family in one as the dangers are always there, especially in the case of a medium traffic accident, destroying the integrity of the battery's containment system, the end result is usually a fierce fire, when people may still be dazed or even unconscious in the vehicle.

Its also the reason that I have driven diesel engine cars since 1985, as petrol is so easily to set on fire. Just note the temperature levels for gassing of petrol and gassing for diesel! A flashpoint difference of almost 100°C!

See below:-

All of us on this planet are (mostly anyway!) blessed with a brain, which we must learn to use, especially when making decisions. Uninformed decisions are often bad. That is the case for many with regard to electric cars today......

Simply following the crowd is a lack of own decision making, that many happily do, but not me, not ever! If I am in such a crowd, I am leading, not following!

So you either accept the dangers for you and yours, or you don't! I don't!

Better battery chemistries are already visible on the horizon, with many of the poorer features of Li-ion, as it is today, being overcome. Hopefully all!

In the future, we may even say such things as "Do you remember when we drove cars with a huge Li-ion batteries?

All the fires and injuries caused?

We must all have been crazy!

Regards

Andy

PS.

 

Examples

Fuel
Flash point
Autoignition temperature


Gasoline (petrol)
−43 °C (−45 °F)
280 °C (536 °F)


Diesel (2-D)
>52 °C (126 °F)
210 °C (410 °F)


Jet fuel (A/A-1)
>38 °C (100 °F)
210 °C (410 °F)


Kerosene
>38–72 °C (100–162 °F)
220 °C (428 °F)

Do not store indoors?

I keep my Bosch battery indoors (ins cupboard) any time it's not on the bike. It's safer from theft than in a garage and stored at a better and more stable temperature range.

I would expect the chance of a 60-80% charged Bosch battery deciding to self-combust in the absence of fire or electrical input is so tiny I would be better worrying about things falling on my house from aircraft flying overhead.

 

Have you heard of ebike batteries self-combusting without fire or charge?

I personally only store them outdoors in the shed the same as I would a can of petrol, better safe than sorry.

They can only be sold to people that do no personal research, are totally uninformed about the pros and cons (that word again!) of the current (pun intended!) battery chemistry and its pitfalls.

Combined with uninformed politicians trying to "jump on the bandwagon" of electric cars.

Which have been proven, if you know where and what to read, have a huge carbon footprint when being manufactured (forgotten/ignored by most!), actually greater than that of a modern petrol/diesel car, plus the fact that electricity today, still has a carbon footprint, that is admittedly getting smaller, but still there, even today!

Combined with the relatively short life of the huge and expensive battery, plus I would not want any of my family in one as the dangers are always there, especially in the case of a medium traffic accident, destroying the integrity of the battery's containment system, the end result is usually a fierce fire, when people may still be dazed or even unconscious in the vehicle.

Its also the reason that I have driven diesel engine cars since 1985, as petrol is so easily to set on fire. Just note the temperature levels for gassing of petrol and gassing for diesel! A flashpoint difference of almost 100°C!

See below:-

All of us on this planet are (mostly anyway!) blessed with a brain, which we must learn to use, especially when making decisions. Uninformed decisions are often bad. That is the case for many with regard to electric cars today......

Simply following the crowd is a lack of own decision making, that many happily do, but not me, not ever! If I am in such a crowd, I am leading, not following!

So you either accept the dangers for you and yours, or you don't! I don't!

Better battery chemistries are already visible on the horizon, with many of the poorer features of Li-ion, as it is today, being overcome. Hopefully all!

In the future, we may even say such things as "Do you remember when we drove cars with a huge Li-ion batteries?

All the fires and injuries caused?

We must all have been crazy!

Regards

Andy

PS.

 

Examples

Fuel
Flash point
Autoignition temperature


Gasoline (petrol)
−43 °C (−45 °F)
280 °C (536 °F)


Diesel (2-D)
>52 °C (126 °F)
210 °C (410 °F)


Jet fuel (A/A-1)
>38 °C (100 °F)
210 °C (410 °F)


Kerosene
>38–72 °C (100–162 °F)
220 °C (428 °F)

Since you've done all the research please can you tell us what what proportion of petrol engined cars catch fire and the same for diesel engined cars and electric cars.

 

Thanks in advance.

I personally only store them outdoors in the shed the same as I would a can of petrol, better safe than sorry.

The risk of having them around in a fire I understand, but I haven't ever heard of them self-igniting other than in a fire or when someone is trying to charge them or they are otherwise in use.

 

I think the differences with petrol are that petrol can be spilt, gives off carcinogenic vapours, is worth much less than a £600 bike battery, and doesn't deteriorate when stored in cold conditions in the way a bike battery is likely to.

 

That said perhaps a cupboard near an external door which would be a main escape route in the event of a house fire isn't the best. I might move it into the cellar...

Edited March 18, 20206 yr by Andy McNish

I would have thought that the ridiculous cost & almost total lack of charging infrastructure would put more people off buying an electric car than the rather remote chance of it spontaneously combusting.

 

I mentioned on another thread how I considered replacing my existing Smart with a new one but discovered that they only do electric models now at 50% higher cost worse performance & a 70 mile range vs over 200 mile range.

 

Refuelling is an enormous issue as even assuming there were enough fast chargers that can give 100-150 miles in 15 minutes that compares very poorly to 5 minutes for 300 miles. Every single petrol pump would need to be replaced by 6-9 fast charging stations plus another charging station at every home & business in the country. If I run out of petrol I can thumb a lift to the garage & return with fuel or syphon it out of a friend's fuel tank. Good luck if you run out of battery power in the middle of nowhere as you need to be towed to a charging station.

They can only be sold to people that do no personal research, are totally uninformed about the pros and cons (that word again!) of the current (pun intended!) battery chemistry and its pitfalls.

 

For the second time you insult me with numerous lies, despite being previously corrected, the trademark of a bigot. I do have a safe electric car, based on longer and far superior in depth knowledge of the subject. These are in part due to being older than you and in part due to my many years in the motor trade with industry ties, a few that I still have.

 

In stark contrast you have done some early research but have failed to keep yourself up to date on this rapidly evolving subject. In consquence you repeatedly post outdated and often always incorrect information.

 

I do agree that there will be future changes as there are in all technologies, which will one day leave li-ion batteries behind, but for the present the urgent need to deal with what we are doing to the planet and our personal health means li-ion is the most viable option at present and for many years hence.

 

All but one make of e-cars today are safe enough to easily compare with fossil fuel cars and as I've mentioned, will bring about a very worthwhile reduction in road deaths and serious injuries. Once again, your closed mind prevents you from beginning to understand why.

 

I can only presume that through age, your mind has become too set to accept that the passage of time can make your former knowledge and opinions wrong.

.

I would have thought that the ridiculous cost & almost total lack of charging infrastructure would put more people off buying an electric car than the rather remote chance of it spontaneously combusting.

 

I mentioned on another thread how I considered replacing my existing Smart with a new one but discovered that they only do electric models now at 50% higher cost worse performance & a 70 mile range vs over 200 mile range.

 

Refuelling is an enormous issue as even assuming there were enough fast chargers that can give 100-150 miles in 15 minutes that compares very poorly to 5 minutes for 300 miles. Every single petrol pump would need to be replaced by 6-9 fast charging stations plus another charging station at every home & business in the country. If I run out of petrol I can thumb a lift to the garage & return with fuel or syphon it out of a friend's fuel tank. Good luck if you run out of battery power in the middle of nowhere as you need to be towed to a charging station.

You've probably come to correct conclusion that the current electric car technology wouldn't suit your current lifestyle but for many people they are ideal, for example a neighbour in our small village has one for visiting local shops and friends and when they need to go on longer journeys they use her husband's IC car.

 

Many people living in larger conurbations who just need a convenient way of getting to work and the shops have them and for the one or 2 longer journeys a year they rent an appropriate IC vehicle.

 

I think it's very narrow minded of some people to dismiss technologies because they provide no benefit to themselves. It's like saying that ebikes are useless because I can't use one to get from London to Manchester in 5 hours.

the cost of batteries in e-cars drops about 20%-25% year on year, it won't be long (around 2025) before an e-car is cheaper to make compared to a normal petrol burning car.

Holy thread hijack Batman!

 

The only real issue with electric cars is their up front price.

 

Battery and manufacturing costs are still falling significantly each year and per mile cost parity with ICE vehicles will happen within 5 years.

 

The new VW ID1 looks like it could be an ideal city car for example and they are targeting a price of around £15k before government grant.

 

If you can pick up a new electric city car with more than 100 miles of range for £12k net and keep it topped up at home for pennies so you don't have to use a public charger then a lot of people will buy that rather than an Aygo, Micra or Fiat 500 ICE car.

 

No road tax, no congestion charge, zero or tiny BIK, much lower maintenance costs...they will sell plenty as second/city cars.

If you can pick up a new electric city car with more than 100 miles of range for £12k net and keep it topped up at home for pennies so you don't have to use a public charger then a lot of people will buy that rather than an Aygo, Micra or Fiat 500 ICE car.

Problem is charging them at home if you have not got a driveway as is the case in a lot of cities and towns.

I think it's very narrow minded of some people to dismiss technologies because they provide no benefit to themselves. It's like saying that ebikes are useless because I can't use one to get from London to Manchester in 5 hours.

 

It amuses me how the e-car critics are so lacking in appropriate knowledge, Nigelbb now joining in with hopelessly inaccurate opinions on every point he makes. Mostly it seems based on Smart's very poor attempts at electrifying their models and an unwillingness to look at the many far better small e-cars.

 

Anyway, they'll all have to get used to e-cars before too long, and then they'll rapidly change their minds and probably deny ever being anti them.

.

Edited March 18, 20206 yr by flecc

Problem is charging them at home if you have not got a driveway as is the case in a lot of cities and towns.

 

Fully agree, and that applies to 25% of the country's households according to an RAC survey for the government. In London that's even worse since it's more like 50%.

 

However London has been offsetting that, first with many free to use public charge points, second with exemption from the £11.50 a day congestion charge. Maybe the rest of the country will come up with the first and other solutions as the e-car fleet increases.

.

There's a great deal of interest in putting charging points on lampposts and a great deal of private money going into the project.

 

Out government has been appalling with its lack of planning for electric cars, they have no clue on things technical, but we'll get there eventually.

car parks could be fitted with contactless chargers. They work well already up to 2kw.

Since you've done all the research please can you tell us what what proportion of petrol engined cars catch fire and the same for diesel engined cars and electric cars.

 

Thanks in advance.

Its your research question, so why can't you do it?

I would be most interested in the complete comparison details!

I feel that as I have made a good start for anyone here, and that we should all, share the work load, as being most fair....

You should also include various types of gas fueled cars as well!

I will say that as a whole, diesel engine vehicles can also catch fire, mostly with nothing to do with the fuel, until the heat warms the fuel up and it eventually burns, but giving a significant extra amount of time for leaving the vehicle. Its also easy for the fire brigade to put out! It does not explode until it has been severely overheated, say in a closed container, before being ignited...

Petrol vapour and other gases, explode quite violently as many have found out the hard way, and only a single spark is needed to start that!

Enjoy the video:-

regards

Andy

PS. Watch this:-

and this, a diesel car fire:-

Edited March 18, 20206 yr by Andy-Mat

Its your research question, so why can't you do it?

As I said before, you told us that you've done all the research so please can you tell us what what proportion of petrol engined cars catch fire and the same for diesel engined cars and electric cars.

 

As you now saying that you tried to mislead us and you never actually researched those figures?

Work is underway at Gridserve’s first ultra-rapid EV charging hub – based at Braintree, Essex – with the Electric Forecourt due to open this summer. Capable of charging up to 24 vehicles at the same time, Gridserve’s Electric Forecourts will offer 350 kW ultra-rapid charge points.

 

 

The site will include a two-storey building, due to house facilities such as a coffee shop, mini supermarket, and airport-style lounge with meeting rooms, for drivers whilst they wait.

Power for the sites will be from solar panels covering areas including the forecourt and shop, and from solar farms, with battery storage technology on site able to balance load and maintain supply.

 

The Braintree hub is one of more than 100 sites Gridserve has secured as part of a £1 billion project. All sites are along busy routes and near grid connections to urban centres and transport centres. Plans are to have a UK-wide network in place within five years.

 

Just one of many indications of why one has to keep up with this rapidly changing subject almost by the minute to know what one is talking about.

.

How long did it take to phase out most coaching inns' stables and phase in petrol stations?

How long did it take to phase out most coaching inns' stables and phase in petrol stations?

 

A whole lot longer than this electric revolution is proceeding.

 

Considering the first mass market e-car, the Nissan Leaf, only hit the roads in December just over 9 years ago in Japan and the USA, the progress to this type of large multi car charging point is astonishing, and it's not the first one. It was only in December at nearly half a million made that the Leaf lost it's title of largest selling e-car model to the Tesla model 3.

 

Now pure electric cars total some 3 million cars worldwide, almost all with li-ion batteries, rising exponentially in the last two years.

 

The early car drivers in the 1900s had to buy their petrol in cans from chemists shops. The diehards who stick with petrol cars to the bitter end over 30 years into the future will probably have to do the same when the last petrol stations have long gone!

.

Work is underway at Gridserve’s first ultra-rapid EV charging hub – based at Braintree, Essex – with the Electric Forecourt due to open this summer. Capable of charging up to 24 vehicles at the same time, Gridserve’s Electric Forecourts will offer 350 kW ultra-rapid charge points.

 

[ATTACH type=full" alt="construction-begins-gridserve--9b899fca.jpg]34423[/ATTACH]

 

The site will include a two-storey building, due to house facilities such as a coffee shop, mini supermarket, and airport-style lounge with meeting rooms, for drivers whilst they wait.

Power for the sites will be from solar panels covering areas including the forecourt and shop, and from solar farms, with battery storage technology on site able to balance load and maintain supply.

 

The Braintree hub is one of more than 100 sites Gridserve has secured as part of a £1 billion project. All sites are along busy routes and near grid connections to urban centres and transport centres. Plans are to have a UK-wide network in place within five years.

 

Just one of many indications of why one has to keep up with this rapidly changing subject almost by the minute to know what one is talking about.

.

I read about this site last week and was interested to read that the identified solar farms providing the bulk of the power to it are at different ends of the country, that surprised me at first but of course they could be anywhere with the power travelling over the national grid.

 

There's a lot of talk in the industry about how the power grid will cope with new demands such as that plus the big demand that half a dozen Teslas in a neighbourhood would put their the local supply.