I like a good discussion!

 

You said:

Torque has no relationship to price.

My turn to say 'rubbish'! You will NEVER be able to buy a new ebike with >60Nm for less than £1000.

 

Expensive equipment is generally light, not robust. A cheap steel cassette will always outlast an expensive lightweight one. Mediocre components is the way to go if you want problem free long life.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

I keep telling you electric bikes do not have ranges. The range is determined by the rider. Ask yourself how much range does a non-electric bike have.

What on earth are you on about? If I do a lot of hill climbing (especially where I live) or I want to do a 50 mile trip - I have always referred to my range remaining to determine when to call it quits.

I was talking about ebike range, not normal bike range. The reason I bought the damn thing was to negotiate these steep hills and to do long distances - something I couldn't do previously without getting absolutely knackered. How many 'normal' bikers do 50 miles a trip? How many 'normal' bikers do major inclines one after the other (snowdon national park)?? If you are a professional biker or super fit then of course range doesn't matter but now I'm getting on, I can't maintain that sort of endurance without the ebike.

Have you tried cycling a 23Kg push bike without assistance?? Of course range information is essential.

 

How much does your diagnostic test cost to find the capacity of the battery? How much does it cost to service your bike compared with the zero cost that most Cyclamatics get in their lifetime?

One service a year £85 all in. Includes diagnostics/battery efficiency/software updates/any gear adjustments/ brake adjustments and general condition.

 

What is a 'cyclamatic'? Is it an asthmatic with a bike?

Z

What is a 'cyclamatic'? Is it an asthmatic with a bike?

 

It was a well regarded very cheap pedelec at one time, could even be performance boosted and many in this forum had one. I believe they could be bought for under £300 at times from one of the Sports shops.

 

Here's an example:

 

 

And here's one with lots of upgrades, disc brakes,

downtube battery etc:

 

Edited June 26, 20232 yr by flecc

I like a good discussion!

 

You said:

Torque has no relationship to price.

My turn to say 'rubbish'! You will NEVER be able to buy a new ebike with >60Nm for less than £1000.

 

Expensive equipment is generally light, not robust. A cheap steel cassette will always outlast an expensive lightweight one. Mediocre components is the way to go if you want problem free long life.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

I keep telling you electric bikes do not have ranges. The range is determined by the rider. Ask yourself how much range does a non-electric bike have.

What on earth are you on about? If I do a lot of hill climbing (especially where I live) or I want to do a 50 mile trip - I have always referred to my range remaining to determine when to call it quits.

I was talking about ebike range, not normal bike range. The reason I bought the damn thing was to negotiate these steep hills and to do long distances - something I couldn't do previously without getting absolutely knackered. How many 'normal' bikers do 50 miles a trip? How many 'normal' bikers do major inclines one after the other (snowdon national park)?? If you are a professional biker or super fit then of course range doesn't matter but now I'm getting on, I can't maintain that sort of endurance without the ebike.

Have you tried cycling a 23Kg push bike without assistance?? Of course range information is essential.

 

How much does your diagnostic test cost to find the capacity of the battery? How much does it cost to service your bike compared with the zero cost that most Cyclamatics get in their lifetime?

One service a year £85 all in. Includes diagnostics/battery efficiency/software updates/any gear adjustments/ brake adjustments and general condition.

 

What is a 'cyclamatic'? Is it an asthmatic with a bike?

Z

This one gives about 100nm for less than £500.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165476089576?hash=item268724bee8:g:6bEAAOSwjDRkkUls&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4CKEoE5Dxbrwf5biVv8l8ulDoxtEB%2FKhqS0fM009pbnMu7o2iJMLf9LPfvcfITh8YQxYPZNFf8bVtA4nzYa01kqyayxgbBrehlscodHy3AdZAdod9C9XfH%2B5ZufEMaeVVmC8vKp%2FK5REtbUN4dLkGbCd1lkhL%2FKGx4y4WXMqfLAhjhkpjVK2m2c0fz61V%2F4L2fit61QcUk3FxcyGq%2FiST%2F4LArGud4AOVcdZVLYfwpoxHL77FnCOdZLlKIReG01wc%2BdwbbRzm%2FN1tY4vktearZ0jS6kieTaUXfgYP7DZOSw5%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yXqo2fYg

 

So, your servicing costs without the cost of the spare parts they will tell you you need will be approximately £800 in the time that mine cost zero.

 

I've been ebiking for 12 years. I've done every type of journey up to around 85 miles in a day. Yes I have pedalled a 28 kg bike 42 miles without switching it on, and when I finally switched it oin 42 miles from home, it didn't work. luckily I was able to do a roadside repair. There's a forum post about it somewhere around 2012. Anybody can do it. It's just a question of speed, gearing and time. The difference between an ebike and a normal one is more the higher average speed than the pedal effort. Many of us pedal with the same effort (around 100w) regardless of the type of bike we ride.

 

I think you've got some figuring out to do. don't worry, you'll get there eventually if you don't give up.

I'm in a bike club - an ebike club. Apart from the fact that ALL of those with bikes that cost less than £1500 have motors of 60Nm and less (most have 50Nm), the motors are from less well known manufacturers and have less robust warranties.

The level of equipment is mediocre to say the least and above all else, components (like the chains/control units) have been the subject of failure too often.

Like anything in life (on average), you get what you pay for.

I've done 4000 miles in 3 years - apart from brake pads, nothing has ever gone wrong with my bike and it looks and feels like new. The battery is still offering over 90% capacity on the diagnostic readout. Range still varies between 85 miles on 'ECO' and 35 miles on 'TURBO'.

They're no different from cars or even washing machines.

 

My battery replacement costs are >£500. If I saw an Ebike for sale for £400....guess what?

The problem when you're in a club is that you all psych each other up into thinking you need something more than you actually do.

It was a well regarded very cheap pedelec at one time, could even be performance boosted and many in this forum had one. I believe they could be bought for under £300 at times from one of the Sports shops.

 

Here's an example:

 

[ATTACH=full]52390[/ATTACH]

 

And here's one with lots of upgrades, disc brakes,

downtube battery etc:

 

[ATTACH=full]52391[/ATTACH][ATTACH=full]52391[/ATTACH]

Lets bring back the beastamatic thread. They were happy days. All those forum members. where are they now?

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/cyclamatic-the-beastamatic-is-dead-long-live-the-beastamatic.9857/page-4

 

To be honest, if a Cyclamatic was the only available ebike in the world, I'd be happy with it, but I'd change the battery to 36v and solder the shunt up to 18A, and fit a DNP 11/34 freewheel for more comfortable pedalling. That would be a nice bike for about £550, but there are actually better ebikes at the same price on Ebay now. Maybe it's time to do another Beastamatic thread.

Edited June 26, 20232 yr by saneagle

This one gives about 100nm for less than £500.

you need a sizable 48V 30A+ controller for 100NM. That bike has 350W motor.

I'm in a bike club - an ebike club. Apart from the fact that ALL of those with bikes that cost less than £1500 have motors of 60Nm and less (most have 50Nm), the motors are from less well known manufacturers and have less robust warranties.

The level of equipment is mediocre to say the least and above all else, components (like the chains/control units) have been the subject of failure too often.

Like anything in life (on average), you get what you pay for.

I've done 4000 miles in 3 years - apart from brake pads, nothing has ever gone wrong with my bike and it looks and feels like new. The battery is still offering over 90% capacity on the diagnostic readout. Range still varies between 85 miles on 'ECO' and 35 miles on 'TURBO'.

They're no different from cars or even washing machines.

 

My battery replacement costs are >£500. If I saw an Ebike for sale for £400....guess what?

Dont know why, but getting Andy-mat type vibes here, lol.

Welcome to the forum zoros.

I'm in a bike club - an ebike club. Apart from the fact that ALL of those with bikes that cost less than £1500 have motors of 60Nm and less (most have 50Nm), the motors are from less well known manufacturers and have less robust warranties.

The level of equipment is mediocre to say the least and above all else, components (like the chains/control units) have been the subject of failure too often.

Like anything in life (on average), you get what you pay for.

I've done 4000 miles in 3 years - apart from brake pads, nothing has ever gone wrong with my bike and it looks and feels like new. The battery is still offering over 90% capacity on the diagnostic readout. Range still varies between 85 miles on 'ECO' and 35 miles on 'TURBO'.

They're no different from cars or even washing machines.

 

My battery replacement costs are >£500. If I saw an Ebike for sale for £400....guess what?

 

Zoros, you have made your point and if your intention was to come over unfriendly and unhelpful and boastful to this new member of the forum you have achieved your goal, this ends discussion with you, thank you.

 

All the other friendly contributors to this thread please can you continue to help this ebike newby please ?

 

I don't really understand peddle assist, if you peddle at the same time does this help save the battery or even help charge it?

Also as soon as I start peddling in assist mode from stop the bike seems to go reasonable fast straight away, is this normal?

saneagle - that "moped" advert.....can't see 100Nm anywhere?

Can you pick it out for me please?

{PS: This advert is for a moped, it is not an Ebike].

 

85 miles in one day on one charge - pull the other one.

 

Your 42 miles with the electric switched off - of course it's possible on the flat. But where I live in the hills, absolutely no chance navigating the hills on a 28kg lump of metal for that distance.....

Range, mileage or distance travelled in one day on battery power alone is simply down to how many WH of battery capacity one carries and how much pedalling with no power one wishes to manage.

 

106 miles is my longest day out ride over 8 hours or so , taking in a leisurely ride 60/40 offroad and road to the south coast . Even then I return home with some 40% battery remaining .

My boardman 700c mx hybrid I use a 36v 522wh downtube battery and in a top rear pannier a 48v 974wh softpack.

Zoros, you have made your point and if your intention was to come over unfriendly and unhelpful and boastful to this new member of the forum you have achieved your goal, this ends discussion with you, thank you.

 

All the other friendly contributors to this thread please can you continue to help this ebike newby please ?

 

I don't really understand peddle assist, if you peddle at the same time does this help save the battery or even help charge it?

Also as soon as I start peddling in assist mode from stop the bike seems to go reasonable fast straight away, is this normal?

Here's what you have to think about. Some people can ride a bike all day that doesn't have a motor. Some people have a motor, but they turn the power down to the minimum because they like to pedal hard. Some people turn the power up to the maximum because they don't want to pedal hard. In those three cases, the electrical power consumed will be zero, about 60w and about 250w respectively. The middle one will claim a range of more than four times what the last one gets fromm the same bike.

 

Your bike uses speed control for the power. That means that it gives maximum power until it reaches a target speed that's different for each level set in the control panel. Electric motors are a bit weird in that the faster they go, the less power they can get, so as you speed up, the power goes down. You always get the maximum torque at zero speed; however, the controller protects the motor by limiting the current at all speeds to stop the motor taking too much current and burning at low speed. What you will feel is high constant torque as you pull away, and when you get to about 12 mph, you'll feel the torque starting to reduce, and the faster you go above that, the less torque you get.

 

The throttle is also a speed control. The target speed depends on how far you turn it from 0% to 100% maximum speed. Your pedal assist is like the throttle divided up into fixed positions, say 40%, 60%, 80% and 100% max speed.

I don't really understand peddle assist, if you peddle at the same time does this help save the battery

 

Yes.

 

if you peddle at the same time does this help (...)charge it?

 

No.

 

Also as soon as I start peddling in assist mode from stop the bike seems to go reasonable fast straight away, is this normal?

 

Depends on your settings. Set to low power assist mode if you don't like it.

The bike was £799 new I believe

So. If you were buying a non Ebike, something costing £149 out of the argos catalog would be good enough ?. Up to the job etc etc.

So. If you were buying a non Ebike, something costing £149 out of the argos catalog would be good enough ?. Up to the job etc etc.

 

I bought a non electric mountain bike (non suspension) from my local bike shop a couple of years ago for £140, a Probike. It was actually £135, but I paid another fiver to have a stand fitted. Has given good service and continues to do so. Last year I fitted a Yose power front wheel kit. £170 for the kit and I used a 15Ah battery I built a while back from cheap Chinese cells (approx £100) that had already done a couple of hundred cycles on another of my bikes. So, all in cost just over £400 for a bike that will do about 50 miles on a charge under "average" conditions - mostly medium assist, a mix of flat and hills.

 

I have since upgraded the brake callipers to Shimano Alivio. it didn't really need this, the existing ones were perfectly adequate, but the Shimano upgrade was cheap and will future proof the bike.

 

I do ride it off road at times, but mostly on road. Although it only has about 35Nm torque quoted for the motor, it will get up quite steep dirt tracks no problem at all.

 

Also, I'm unlikely to get mugged riding it around town, unlike people I know who have been for their £4k bikes.

 

Let's not forget Les is on a learning curve here. When you first get into e-bikes, your knowledge is next to zero. You have no idea what is good and what isn't, or what even suits you and your situation. Some people love mid drives, others hate them...there's a lot that comes down to personal preference.

 

I would much rather make my mistakes on a cheap bike that has issues which I can work on and learn something than blow serious money on something unsuitable that I won't learn anything from and I will end up not using.

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by WheezyRider

Saneagle - much appreciated - now that makes sense!

Best

Z

The problem when you're in a club is that you all psych each other up into thinking you need something more than you actually do.

 

Lets bring back the beastamatic thread. They were happy days. All those forum members. where are they now?

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/cyclamatic-the-beastamatic-is-dead-long-live-the-beastamatic.9857/page-4

 

To be honest, if a Cyclamatic was the only available ebike in the world, I'd be happy with it, but I'd change the battery to 36v and solder the shunt up to 18A, and fit a DNP 11/34 freewheel for more comfortable pedalling. That would be a nice bike for about £550, but there are actually better ebikes at the same price on Ebay now. Maybe it's time to do another Beastamatic thread.

 

Well said. Ive had many hobbies in my life and in EVERY one, I have met bores who dissed my introductory equipment.

One doesn't need to spend much on an ebike for day to day use , 4K is just so that one doesn't lose face with the club mates or ones ego.

Just look at SW and his pride and joy he has spent millions on , then his mate does him big time with a BBHSD on a stock mtb.

Yes.

 

 

 

No.

 

 

 

Depends on your settings. Set to low power assist mode if you don't like it.

 

Thanks for this reply, back to assist mode, if I peddle but my peddling speed does not catch up with the speed of the motor does that save anything off the battery at all or am I just using the same amount of battery as the throttle?

It may be a fault with the bike I have, but it seems that I have to turn off the ignition with the key to just use peddle power as on my panel it has 3 power modes and always starts on level 1, it doesn't appear to have level 0 for non peddle assist.

I am very sorry if I am asking really silly questions, please be patient with me while I learn.

Thanks

Les

Let's not forget Les is on a learning curve here. When you first get into e-bikes, your knowledge is next to zero. You have no idea what is good and what isn't, or what even suits you and your situation. Some people love mid drives, others hate them...there's a lot that comes down to personal preference.

 

I would much rather make my mistakes on a cheap bike that has issues which I can work on and learn something than blow serious money on something unsuitable that I won't learn anything from and I will end up not using.

 

Thank you, the learning curve is STEEP!

Thanks for this reply, back to assist mode, if I peddle but my peddling speed does not catch up with the speed of the motor does that save anything off the battery at all or am I just using the same amount of battery as the throttle?

It may be a fault with the bike I have, but it seems that I have to turn off the ignition with the key to just use peddle power as on my panel it has 3 power modes and always starts on level 1, it doesn't appear to have level 0 for non peddle assist.

I am very sorry if I am asking really silly questions, please be patient with me while I learn.

Thanks

Les

 

 

Don't worry, we all have to start somewhere

 

When you turn the pedals to activate the PAS, the motor will kick in and assist you. What decides the amount of power that comes from the battery is the amount of assist you have requested on the controller (this could be 0 to 5, sometimes 0 to 6) and the amount of effort you put in to turn the pedals. You could put in next to zero effort and just turn them around (sometimes called "ghost pedalling" (I hope I got the right spelling there, or Flecc will need to correct me! )).

 

Obviously, if you put in zero effort, the battery is doing all the work, not you. But you could be putting in a bit of effort, say about 100W, then when you cruise at about 25kph, the motor will be putting in about the same as you to maintain a steady speed on the flat. If you put in lots of effort, the motor will hardly be doing anything at all and once you go above 25kph, the motor will cut out and then it's all down to you to keep the bike at that speed.

 

Even without the motor speed limit restriction, on my hub drive I feel I am doing most of my riding in the highlighted yellow zone where I am "approaching" the no load max speed of the motor and as I approach it, the motor gives less and less assistance, so even though I am riding in the top pedal assist level (5) I am still getting decentish range (70 ish miles) with a 720wh battery because the motor is on that downward power line)

 

As I ease off pedalling, and the speed drops slightly, the motor is actually giving more assistance and more power

Thanks for this reply, back to assist mode, if I peddle but my peddling speed does not catch up with the speed of the motor does that save anything off the battery at all or am I just using the same amount of battery as the throttle?

 

The more effort you make the longer your battery will last.

 

it seems that I have to turn off the ignition with the key to just use peddle power

 

Key you are referring to is probably key to lock your battery to battery holder. It doesn't work as ignition key.

 

on my panel it has 3 power modes and always starts on level 1, it doesn't appear to have level 0 for non peddle assist.

 

Check your manual. 1 might be mode without assistance or you might need to switch it off by holding power button.

It may be a fault with the bike I have, but it seems that I have to turn off the ignition with the key to just use peddle power as on my panel it has 3 power modes and always starts on level 1, it doesn't appear to have level 0 for non peddle assist.

Every bike is wired differently for different reasons. Your key is wired to the throttle, so it switches it on and off. It's not an ignition key. Some bikes have a red button on the throttle for that. There is no ignition key on an ebike, only on/off switches. Your main on/off switch is on the control panel. You might have a battery isolator switch on the battery.

I would much rather make my mistakes on a cheap bike that has issues which I can work on and learn something than blow serious money on something unsuitable that I won't learn anything from and I will end up not using.

When I worked for a bike charity we had a huge number of bikes come in which we basically scrapped because they were the cheapest of the cheap.

People bought them, but found that the build quality was so poor that parts stopped working, drivetrains went out of sync, brakes, well, failed to brake.

So instead of getting out and about, the bike got consigned to the shed and there it stayed until; they had a clear out and we got given them.

 

A term was coined- BSO- Bicycle Shaped Object.

 

So people with little to no experience of bikes or bike maintainence were being put off from riding. They'd initially take it to their local bike shop but find repairs and servicing too expensive, and either from not having the money, or being unable to fix them themselves(for a host of reasons) they stopped cycling.

 

There is a certain level and starting cheap usually means the new cyclist is setting themselves up for a slew of headaches. Ebikes, even cheap ones cost a considerable amount, and someone who has spent more on a bike than they have ever spent on such really are surprised that it fails.

They dont want a 'learning curve' they just want to get out and enjoy the pastime.

 

So cheap puts people off.

OK I ride an expensive bike, I've built some 30 or so mostly expensive bikes. OK I have boxes and boxes of expensive components but thats just me from my experience of 30 years on what works and what doesnt.

This doesnt mean im only about expensive bikes. Im wholly about bikes that are fit for purpose. Bikes that are not like the thousands donated to bike charities or recyclers each and every year that in many cases have been ridden a handful of times from new.

I'm about bums on saddles. But bikes need to have a base standard and be fit for use.

 

 

I sometimes feel that some here, who are so so into stripping down motors, batteries, building batteries point new members towards bike they know will present issue, so they can then fully indulge in their chosen hobby and talk them through soldering up electrical components.

Edited July 1, 20232 yr by AndyBike

The more effort you make the longer your battery will last.

 

Thank you, that could go some way to explaining my poor mileage per charge, I think a lot of the time I have just been peddling, but really the motor has been doing the work.

 

Key you are referring to is probably key to lock your battery to battery holder. It doesn't work as ignition key.

 

There is a lock on the battery, but there is another on/off key (see attached photo ) this appears to turn on the display on the right hand throttle side to show the level of volts left in the battery and to turn on the assist mode and throttle whether.

The main display will only work when the on/off is switched to on though.

 

I chose the wrong terminology when I said "ignition" though, sorry about that

 

 

 

Check your manual. 1 might be mode without assistance or you might need to switch it off by holding power button.

 

Unfortunately I didn't get a manual with it, it just has 3 levels of assist, so it does appear that I have to turn off the on/off key if I want to ride like this.

 

Thanks Les

Every bike is wired differently for different reasons. Your key is wired to the throttle, so it switches it on and off. It's not an ignition key. Some bikes have a red button on the throttle for that. There is no ignition key on an ebike, only on/off switches. Your main on/off switch is on the control panel. You might have a battery isolator switch on the battery.

 

Thanks, yes, I used the wrong term when I called it ignition, my main on/off switch appears to be away from the main control panel as answered on the previous post, I just wish there was an all inclusive idiots guide to ebike and controls as I wouldn't have to keep asking silly questions on here