April 26, 20241 yr Shock news! Lots of people have had fires in their homes started by cigarettes, chip pans, and shoddy electrical installations. Mad legislator Victor Collywobbles to propose a bill in Parliament imposing a ban on chip pans and incandescent bulbs. These he claims have caused fires and have killed people. He deferred proposing a ban on cigarette smoking indoors on the grounds that most smokers are dying anyway from their habit. " We can no longer allow ' fire'," screeched Alice Blowhard of the Anti fire society. "It is just too dangerous, and those who meddle with must must feel the full weight of the law."
April 26, 20241 yr Shock news! Lots of people have had fires in their homes started by cigarettes, chip pans, and shoddy electrical installations. Mad legislator Victor Collywobbles to propose a bill in Parliament imposing a ban on chip pans and incandescent bulbs. These he claims have caused fires and have killed people. He deferred proposing a ban on cigarette smoking indoors on the grounds that most smokers are dying anyway from their habit. " We can no longer allow ' fire'," screeched Alice Blowhard of the Anti fire society. "It is just too dangerous, and those who meddle with must must feel the full weight of the law." I agree with your sentiments. The way I see it is that humanity has been dealing with fire since the stone ages. Most people understand how normal fires start and spread, but when they deal with ebike batteries or similar lithium batteries, they have no frame of reference. All they see is a black box that looks pretty inert and harmless. From time to time, lithium batteries catch fire. They're virtually impossible to put out, and they can do a lot of damage when the flaring flames set light to other stuff. The toxic fumes and exploding cells make it difficult to even approach the burning battery, so it can't be moved to a safer location. The one thing missing is the hard evidence of what causes the batteries to ignite. I've built several batteries myself and I can see how easy it is to get a short circuit inside. All it takes is a welded strip running over the edge of an adjacent cell that's at a different voltage. All you'd have is the thin heatshrink covering of each cell between a working ebike and your house burning down. That heartshrink is easily cut by the sharp edges of the welded strips and plates. In that case, you have to plan very carefully the positioning of the welded strips/plates. The same applies to the sense wires that run from the ends of the cells to the BMS. They might look nice and neat, but when the bike goes down a bumpy road, the thin insulation would soon wear through if they were in the wrong position. 10 years ago, I used to see batteries with these sort of issues, but not anymore. I suspect that what happens after the fire is that investigators try to establish exactly which battery was involved, then they find one of the same type and send it to some standards testing lab to analyse it. If the charger doesn't meet the EC standards or they see anything untoward in the battery, they order a recall or seizure. Their clever people with creative minds analyse what they are given and invent potential risks and potential solutions. Probably, some of those guys are jobsworths and others just want to look clever, so they propose all sort of unnecessary ideas that would mitigate their imagined risks.
April 26, 20241 yr I agree with your sentiments. The way I see it is that humanity has been dealing with fire since the stone ages. Most people understand how normal fires start and spread, but when they deal with ebike batteries or similar lithium batteries, they have no frame of reference. All they see is a black box that looks pretty inert and harmless. From time to time, lithium batteries catch fire. They're virtually impossible to put out, and they can do a lot of damage when the flaring flames set light to other stuff. The toxic fumes and exploding cells make it difficult to even approach the burning battery, so it can't be moved to a safer location. The one thing missing is the hard evidence of what causes the batteries to ignite. I've built several batteries myself and I can see how easy it is to get a short circuit inside. All it takes is a welded strip running over the edge of an adjacent cell that's at a different voltage. All you'd have is the thin heatshrink covering of each cell between a working ebike and your house burning down. That heartstrings is easily cut by the sharp edges of the welded strips and plates. In that case, you have to plan very carefully the positioning of the welded strips/plates. The same applies to the sense wires that run from the ends of the cells to the BMS. They might look nice and neat, but when the bike goes down a bumpy road, the thin insulation would soon wear through if they were in the wrong position. 10 years ago, I used to see batteries with these sort of issues, but not anymore. I suspect that what happens after the fire is that the investigators try to establish exactly which battery was involved, then they find one of the same type and send it to some standards testing lab to analyse it. If the charger doesn't meet the EC standards or they see anything untoward in the battery, they order a recall or seizure. Their clever people with creative minds analyse what they are given and invent potential risks and potential solutions. Probably, some of those guys are jobsworths and others just want to look clever, so they propose all sort of ideas that would mitigate their imagined risks. All true of course. I think it would be better if there were some bigger, rectangular cells like the ones used in car batteries, which could be bolted to their bus bars with nuts. You would not need to weld them together in groups of half a dozen. It would be a far safer arrangement than what we have with your well described potential for dangerous failures. The other thing though about the general public and legislators predilection for infantilizing them and making rules to protect them. I'm very much against that. When I was about five or six, my mother born in 1921, taught me how to light the coal fire we had in our living room, and I used to do it afterwards as and when she told me to. She showed me all kinds of dangerous stuff, like the rather shabby electrical system we had then, domestos in the cupboard, and I knew full well before I was five that there were all kinds of dangerous things that might kill me if I were a fool. That seems to be gone nowadays. Adults blame everybody but themselves when they do something stupid. Hence the warnings on kettles and toasters about hot water being dangerous and not putting your fingers into the toaster.....
April 26, 20241 yr Hence the warnings on kettles and toasters about hot water being dangerous and not putting your fingers into the toaster..... Why didn't anyone warn me I shouldn't put hot water in the toaster?
April 26, 20241 yr The one thing missing is the hard evidence of what causes the batteries to ignite. 10 years ago, I used to see batteries with these sort of issues, but not anymore. I suspect the main cause is still the cylindrical cells. You'll remember long ago when laptop fires became commonplace and the main manufacturers held their hands up, inadequate manufacturing quality control as the cause. There's indications that this is still a problem. Some while ago Tesla lost patience with the major cell makers inability to produce larger size cells in sufficient quantity so they decided to increasingly pull their manufacture in-house in new dedicated plants But they have hit exactly the same problems in trying to bulk produce 21700 and 4680 cells, to the extent that their two most popular car models, the Model 3 and Model Y are being sent out with Tesla's old form of multi-cell battery, some 7200 x 18640 cells, which quantity obviously greatly increases the odds on a faulty cell being among them. Panasonic have now set up a 4680 production line in Japan, presumably hoping to succeed and secure Tesla's lucrative purchasing, but that remains to be seen. Nissan meanwhile have stuck to much smaller quantities of prismatic cells for their new Ariya model, albeit with liquid cooling and CCS charging instead of CHAdeMO. .
April 26, 20241 yr Why didn't anyone warn me I shouldn't put hot water in the toaster? Yes - it is very easily done. They don't even have a door on top of the toaster slot to stop you.
April 26, 20241 yr I suspect the main cause is still the cylindrical cells. You'll remember long ago when laptop fires became commonplace and the main manufacturers held their hands up, inadequate manufacturing quality control as the cause. There's indications that this is still a problem. Some while ago Tesla lost patience with the major cell makers inability to produce larger size cells in sufficient quantity so they decided to increasingly pull their manufacture in-house in new dedicated plants But they have hit exactly the same problems in trying to bulk produce 21700 and 4680 cells, to the extent that their two most popular car models, the Model 3 and Model Y are being sent out with Tesla's old form of multi-cell battery, some 7200 x 18640 cells, which quantity obviously greatly increases the odds on a faulty cell being among them. Panasonic have now set up a 4680 production line in Japan, presumably hoping to succeed and secure Tesla's lucrative purchasing, but that remains to be seen. Nissan meanwhile have stuck to much smaller quantities of prismatic cells for their new Ariya model, albeit with liquid cooling and CCS charging instead of CHAdeMO. . the current best cells for EVs is CATL Shenxing LPF cells. They have already been used in Chinese EVs. 370 miles in 10 minutes. No battery loss in freezing temperature and easily beat Lithium ion cells on energy density and cheaper than before. They achieve these feats by precisely placing orientating the nanoparticles that form the cathode. CATL Unveiled the Shenxing Plus, World's First LFP Cell With 4C Ultra-Fast-Charging Tech - autoevolution
April 26, 20241 yr the current best cells for EVs is CATL Shenxing LPF cells. They have already been used in Chinese EVs. 370 miles in 10 minutes. No battery loss in freezing temperature and easily beat Lithium ion cells on energy density and cheaper than before. They achieve these feats by precisely placing orientating the nanoparticles that form the cathode. CATL Unveiled the Shenxing Plus, World's First LFP Cell With 4C Ultra-Fast-Charging Tech - autoevolution If they were that good, we'd all be using them. Until now, LFP is too heavy for ebikes.
April 26, 20241 yr the current best cells for EVs is CATL Shenxing LPF cells. They have already been used in Chinese EVs. 370 miles in 10 minutes. No battery loss in freezing temperature and easily beat Lithium ion cells on energy density and cheaper than before. They achieve these feats by precisely placing orientating the nanoparticles that form the cathode. CATL Unveiled the Shenxing Plus, World's First LFP Cell With 4C Ultra-Fast-Charging Tech - autoevolution Yes, I'm quite sure we will be seeing many more changes yet. But given the current climate and the huge problems Lithium fires are causing, there's much to be said for Nissan's cautious very safe approach meanwhile. It would take just one traction battery fire to destroy their 14 year perfect record. .
April 26, 20241 yr Yes, I'm quite sure we will be seeing many more changes yet. But given the current climate and the huge problems Lithium fires are causing, there's much to be said for Nissan's cautious very safe approach meanwhile. It would take just one traction battery fire to destroy their 14 year perfect record. . What perfect record? There was this one at Nissan HQ, the one in Texas and 4 in Ukraine. https://www.firefighternation.com/news/tn-firefighters-use-45000-gallons-of-water-on-leaf-ev-fire-at-nissan-hq-overheated-on-charger/#gref
April 26, 20241 yr What perfect record? There was this one at Nissan HQ, the one in Texas and 4 in Ukraine. https://www.firefighternation.com/news/tn-firefighters-use-45000-gallons-of-water-on-leaf-ev-fire-at-nissan-hq-overheated-on-charger/#gref The one in Texas was due to a fire in 12 volt battery ancillaries circuit, just like those in IC cars. Leaf fires in the USA and FOUR in Ukraine? Strange they don't happen where the Leafs are mostly sold. Perhaps they were like the non-existent EVs that didn't cause the multi story car park fires. .
April 26, 20241 yr ESF's proposal is a direct appeal for a licence to make money. Certification would clearly inhibit new businesses and technologies entering the market and importantly it's whether it would make batteries any safer. I reckon ESF did themselves no favours with their Dangerous E-Bike Chargers report claiming that "An incorrect plug is a sign that the charger has not been adequately tested". Very often overmoulded power cables are supplied that are probably separately sourced for the countries a retailer serves, and ESF didn't test a single one of these 'unsafe' chargers or establish which cable UK customers receive. NB a proper mains plug is essential (link). It's also a blatant power grab attempt. Charities shouldn't be allowed to operate like this. We should get writing to our MPs about ESF's proposal. I wonder how the Charity Commission would respond to many people making complaints - they can cause oodles of trouble for charities, we forced one to shut down about 30 years ago. I can't go into details, that particular charity couldn't either. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/charity-commission Edited April 26, 20241 yr by guerney
April 28, 20241 yr "consider the installation of heat alarms where charging points are located in a garage or kitchen. " Finally! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv20vzpm123o They'll get here eventually: https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/home-ruination-by-ebike-battery-fire-expulserating-preterminator%E2%84%A2%C2%AE%C2%A9%E2%84%A0.46934/#post-708613 (I'll update this terribly boring video at some point, with another slightly less terribly boring better edited video - Vimeo allows you to replace videos, unlike Youtube. Apologies to Richard Strauss for the butchering of his lovely music) Edited April 28, 20241 yr by guerney
May 1, 20241 yr Author "Seven bikes all in one room meant a hugely accelerated fire" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-68918862 "The battery was on charge alongside six other similar bikes in the living room of the property, South Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service (SYFRS) said." https://www.syfire.gov.uk/check-your-battery-plea-by-fire-service-after-battery-fire-destroys-sheffield-house/ https://planetradio.co.uk/hits-radio/south-yorkshire/news/ebike-fire-sheffield-three-injured/ https://www.facebook.com/YappAppNews/videos/e-bike-horror-fire-sees-three-rushed-to-hospital-in-sheffieldthree-people-have-b/973623494350746/ Edited May 1, 20241 yr by lenny
May 1, 20241 yr Author https://chiswickcalendar.co.uk/e-bike-bursts-into-flames-damaging-south-ealing-flat/
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