January 8, 20251 yr Batteries in laptops, buses, cars and e-bikes have all caught fire in explosive ways because of dendritic crystals forming in cell electrolytes, causing shorts. It's also what is holding up the introduction of solid state lithium batteries. Just Google the subject for any number of scholarly articles on the issue. Only recently it's been possible for the first time to actually film the crystal growth using an electron microscope with cryogenic methods. . You're still not getting it. We've all been using laptops, phones etc. for years. I've never had one catch fire, nor have you, nor has anybody else that I know. It's not some inherent characteristic of the battery that will cause it to burn at some point in time. There was a pattern to those that caught fire - same model, same brand, same batch. My powers of deduction say that indicates a manufacturing or design fault. There are other occurrences, but they're muddied by all the other potential causes, like damage, damaged connector, water, wrong charger, etc. I call BS on dendrites causing any of our lithium batteries to catch fire. If it were true, lithium batteries would be banned.
January 8, 20251 yr A big e-bike with an illegal throttle can be deadly – Adrian Chiles on the dark side of the city runabout Incredibly, the Government will potentially help you buy an illegal e-bike via a cycle to work scheme "But the bigger bikes invariably come with throttles, which is illegal. The retailers often claim they’re in the clear if the throttle is deactivated when you buy it. However, if it’s a simple matter to get the throttle working once you’ve made the purchase — as it usually is — that, too, is illegal." https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/32623431/adrian-chiles-ebikes-government-bbc/ https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/chaos-could-be-coming-our-way-adrian-chiles-asks-whether-e-bikes-are-a-new-menace-in Adrian Chiles is guilty of hate speech against normal legal ebikes. He should be prosecuted for it. Send your complaint to the BBC and the police.
January 8, 20251 yr Adrian Chiles is guilty of hate speech against normal legal ebikes. He should be prosecuted for it. Send your complaint to the BBC and the police. pedelecophobia
January 8, 20251 yr "Figures show 937 illegal e-bikes were seized in the year up to 11 August 2024 - up from 511 in the previous 12 months, representing an 83% increase." https://clairemiller.net/2024/09/freedom-of-information-in-the-news-week-ending-27-9-2024-foifriday/ Funny how the figure "83%" keeps popping up? Bit like how during the lockdowns it was always "11 protesters arrested", mmm "83% of ... krime was by..." https://avondhupress.ie/83-of-irish-adults-miss-out-on-new-experiences-opportunities-by-sticking-to-the-same-old-habits/ https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpp4/census2022profile4-disabilityhealthandcarers/healthandsmoking/ "Health good or v.good down to 83%" https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/07/27/census-2022-83-increase-in-the-number-aged-65-and-older-living-in-rental-accommodation/ "83% more" https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-ihsmr/irishhealthsurvey2019-mainresults/healthdeterminants/ "83% got a flu shot" I'm sure it's completely Coin-cidental ;-)
January 8, 20251 yr Funny how the figure "83%" keeps popping up? (...) I'm sure it's completely Coin-cidental ;-) 13% is unlucky, 66% is to evil, 69% is to sexy... 83% was first politically correct number and that is why it is so widely used.
January 8, 20251 yr You're still not getting it. We've all been using laptops, phones etc. for years. I've never had one catch fire, nor have you, nor has anybody else that I know. It's not some inherent characteristic of the battery that will cause it to burn at some point in time. There was a pattern to those that caught fire - same model, same brand, same batch. My powers of deduction say that indicates a manufacturing or design fault. There are other occurrences, but they're muddied by all the other potential causes, like damage, damaged connector, water, wrong charger, etc. I call BS on dendrites causing any of our lithium batteries to catch fire. If it were true, lithium batteries would be banned. Maybe take a look at the CVs of the chaps who wrote this article (link at bottom) and consider their experience before calling 'bullshit' on the processes they write about in connection with their research into safer batteries for a major Chinese automotive research institute. China after all is where battery production, utilisation and development is taking place . Lithium dendrite is a phenomenon in which lithium-ion cannot be inserted into the anode layered structure and is deposited on the anode surface. Fast charging of LiBs and charging of LiBs at high SOC or at low temperature may accelerate the growth of lithium dendrites. As lithium dendrites grow, the separator may be punctured, leading to an ISC, eventually thermal runaway and fire. In addition, the reaction of lithium dendrites with the electrolyte will thicken SEI, which prevents lithium from participating in the reaction, resulting in a permanent reduction in capacity. Lithium dendrites can be partially dissolved by reverse reactions [29]. The common methods to avoid dendrites are to reserve 10–20% capacity to prevent overcharging [30], maintain the appropriate charging temperatures and allow the battery to stand after charging [31]. Slight over-discharge can lead to accelerated aging and lithium dendrite growth, which may cause ISC and then evolve into thermal runaway. The severity of over-discharge is lower than that of overcharge. Maleki et al. [66] found that over-discharge may lead to capacity loss and/or reduced thermal stability. They demonstrated that dissolved copper (Cu) can migrate from the anode side to the cathode side through the spacer, leading to ISCs and further thermal runaway. Zhang et al. [67] found that the capacity degradation of the over-discharged batteries is mainly caused by the dissolution of Cu collectors and deposition of Cu on the anode surface. Erol et al. [68] demonstrated that the impedance increases greatly when the battery is over-discharged. The growth of lithium dendrites was found in the disassembled battery after a long-term low temperature charging. The lithium deposition layer became thicker as a number of cycles increase. If the lithium dendrite continues to grow, it may penetrate the separator, causing the battery ISC and even triggering thermal runaway. Dai et al. [69] pointed out that lithium precipitation is the main cause of capacity degradation and internal impedance increase of a LiB when charging at low temperature. Charging at high current or at high cut-off voltage also induces lithium precipitation, accelerating capacity degradation. The inconsistencies between the cells in a battery pack can also induce failure. There are always slight differences between battery cells due to manufacturing process, and these cells usually need to be connected in parallel to obtain sufficient capacity and then in series to obtain suitable voltage. Parallel-connected cells are usually treated as one cell and only one voltage is measured. Due to the differences in internal resistance of each cell, there will be different currents flowing through the cells [33]. This can cause different temperatures of each cell, which in turn affects the internal resistance and current of each cell [34]. Eventually, it may gradually amplify small differences and significantly increase cell inconsistency. Series-connected cells usually measure only total current in the series branch. Due to the cell differences in capacity, internal resistance and SOC, each cell may have different voltage and different available charge and discharge capacity. As the current flowing through the cells is the same in this series branch, the cells cannot be fully utilized. Inconsistence will also cause battery aging, a reduction in capacity and an increase in internal resistance [35]. Aging can lead to an increase in SOC estimation error which affects BMS decisions [36]. This in turn will aggravate cell inconsistencies in a battery pack, causing overcharge [37]. Selecting different charge and discharge strategies at various temperatures for these inconsistent cells can significantly slow down battery aging [38]. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666792423000252#keys0001
January 8, 20251 yr You're still not getting it. We've all been using laptops, phones etc. for years. I've never had one catch fire, nor have you, nor has anybody else that I know. It's not some inherent characteristic of the battery that will cause it to burn at some point in time. There was a pattern to those that caught fire - same model, same brand, same batch. My powers of deduction say that indicates a manufacturing or design fault. There are other occurrences, but they're muddied by all the other potential causes, like damage, damaged connector, water, wrong charger, etc. I call BS on dendrites causing any of our lithium batteries to catch fire. If it were true, lithium batteries would be banned. I asked google AI about this point you deny. My question - "Do dendrites cause spontaneous battery fires?" " Yes, dendrites can cause spontaneous battery fires: What are dendrites? Dendrites are tiny, needle-like structures that form on the negative electrode of lithium-ion batteries during charging. How do dendrites cause fires? Dendrites can pierce the separator between the anode and cathode, causing an internal short circuit. This allows large currents to flow internally, which can overheat the battery and lead to a fire or explosion. What causes dendrites to form? Dendrites can form due to abnormal charging conditions, such as overcharging or charging at a low temperature. They can also form when lithium ions accumulate on the anode surface and aren't absorbed in time. Why are dendrites a problem? Dendrites can also cause other problems, such as accelerated self-discharge, which can impair the battery's performance. How can dendrites be prevented? Researchers are working to develop ways to minimize or prevent dendrites from forming. "
January 8, 20251 yr Maybe take a look at the CVs of the chaps who wrote this article (link at bottom) and consider their experience before calling 'bullshit' on the processes they write about in connection with their research into safer batteries for a major Chinese automotive research institute. China after all is where battery production, utilisation and development is taking place . https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666792423000252#keys0001 It's BS. Did your bike catch fire because of them? Name somebody who's did? People write this shite to cover up real problems. Read what the AI said again. It doesn't say dendrites cause ebike fires. There's a key word. I'm sure you can understand English. A meteorite can fall on your head and kill you next time you step out of your house. You can be blown up by a nuclear bomb next week. These events are both far more dangerous than an ebike fire. Why is nobody talking or worrying about them? As I said above, if it was actually happing, all lithium batteries would be banned. Edited January 8, 20251 yr by saneagle
January 8, 20251 yr My position on avoiding my own batteries catching fore is as follows: Charge at a safe rate (be conservative about charging rate) Never charge a battery that is near or below freezing Never charge a battery which is hot Don't draw very heavy currents from your battery beyond its rating Never over-charge a battery Never run a battery that has been physically damaged or shows signs of structural damage or leaking. Be suspicious of a battery which is regularly going unbalanced. It means that a cell or cells in one or more parallel groups are weaker and may be in danger of being over-charged. This is all just common sense, but it is backed by expert research from people whose qualifications and work history backs up what they say.
January 8, 20251 yr It's BS. Did your bike catch fire because of them? Name somebody who's did? People write this shite to cover up real problems. Read what the AI said again. It doesn't say dendrites cause ebike fires. There's a key word. I'm sure you can understand English. A meteorite can fall on your head and kill you next time you step out of your house. You can be blown up by a nuclear bomb next week. These events are both far more dangerous than an ebike fire. Why is nobody talking or worrying about them? As I said above, if it was actually happing, all lithium batteries would be banned. I guess from the rapidity of your response and its content that you didn't trouble to read the research paper I referenced which was written by a group of Chinese automotive experts involved in safer battery development. Given that you haven't read it, I guess you also don't know about their research paper history either. So you say dendrites don't cause fires. Experts say they do. Who should I believe. I am sorry Dave to offend you. I don't want to offend you. I do like offending some people. You are not one of them, but I think you are wrong, and i think you are over relying on the experience you have in stating that dendrites are not a problem. People - many people involved at the cutting edge of battery development working in research centres take a view different to yours.
January 8, 20251 yr You're still not getting it. We've all been using laptops, phones etc. for years. I've never had one catch fire, nor have you, nor has anybody else that I know. It's not some inherent characteristic of the battery that will cause it to burn at some point in time. I call BS on dendrites causing any of our lithium batteries to catch fire. If it were true, lithium batteries would be banned. You are right that it is a manufacturing fault causing the fires, the faults being in the cell electrolyte, but it is you who is not getting it. It has long been established beyond question that slight imperfections in cell manufacture lead to the formation of metalic lithium crystals with sharp pointed growths that pierce insulation causing shorts leading to swelling and ultimately fires. And it was the urgency of very many fires in laptop batteries that led to that knowledge. So much for nobody experiencing those fires, we've even watched videos of then exploding out while idle and out of use and not charging, some in transit merely being carried or laid down. A few of our members have experienced the swelling up short of burning, as I have with a camera battery. That is why lithium batteries ARE so widely banned from flying, from many courier or postal services, or storage indoors. Quotes: "On February 12, 2013, the Wall Street Journal reported that Aviation safety investigators are examining whether the formation of microscopic structures known as dendrites inside the Boeing Co. 787's lithium-ion batteries played a role in twin incidents that prompted the fleet to be grounded nearly a month ago." "On November 13, 2017, a lithium-ion battery overheated on a United Airlines Boeing 787 during approach to Charles de Gaulle Airport. A spokesman for Boeing said, "the plane experienced a fault with a single cell". The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) released a report on December 1, 2014, and assigned blame to several groups:[3] GS Yuasa of Japan, for battery manufacturing methods that could introduce defects not caught by inspection Boeing's engineers, who failed to consider and test for worst-case battery failures The Federal Aviation Administration, that failed to recognize the potential hazard and did not require proper tests as part of its certification process "The FAA also announced plans to conduct an extensive review of the 787's critical systems. The review's focus was on the safety of the lithium-ion batteries[1] that use lithium cobalt oxide(LiCoO2) as the positive electrode. These electrodes are known for their thermal runaway hazard and provide oxygen for a fire." "The Japan Transport Safety Board (JTSB) has said on January 23 that the battery in ANA jets in Japan reached a maximum voltage of 31 V (i.e. they were operating within the 32 V limit as the Boston JAL 787 had been), but had a sudden unexplained voltage drop[38] to near zero.[39] All cells had signs of thermal damage before the thermal runaway." . Edited January 8, 20251 yr by flecc
January 8, 20251 yr And the AI did say that battery fires can be caused by dendrites. Read it again. It says so in the second bullet point. They only need to grow large enough to pierce the insulating permeable membrane between anode and cathode. This is a very thin, permeable, plastic sheet which lies between the anode and cathode, which as I am sure you know has a very very small spacing and is wound around and around in a sort of very thin, tight Swiss roll inside an 18650. The separator is meant to have tiny holes in it. That's fine because metal ions pass through. This is VERY different to a metallic copper thread growing through, or a metallic lithium one. They will conduct. When metallic dendrites grow through the separator they make a short circuit. Depending on the size and carrying capacity of the short, the cell will heat up and MAY run away. It might or it might not depending entirely on the dendrite shunt's current carrying capacity and heat generation potential. It might just drain the cell and cell group slowly if it is small enough.(*1 see note below) This mode of failure may not be common - nothing like as common as really stupid abuse. Not being very common, does not mean it isn't real. You may recall that car fire video we talked about about three weeks ago. A car not having been used for several hours and not on charge just went up in flames. This internal shunt problem is a likely cause, I would say. You suggested that the battery most likely had been punctured by metallic road debris - an exhaust pipe run over by the car. I think that kind of injury would have shown itself pretty quickly, like when nutters on you tube hammer nails through lithium cells. There is no delay at all - they just erupt. *1 Edit. I have a10s 6p battery which is heading towards four years old and has powered my e-bike about 2800 miles. It has had a fault for about two years which shows as the potential to quite quickly go out of balance. The fault is on one group of parallel cells. A good suggestion frm helpful people here was that the BMS was connected to one group of cells and over time was draining that group down. Sadly - this does not fit with the quite rapid rate the cell group loses vltage. I can artificially balance the pack by charging the weak group myself so it is at 4.19v like all the others and within a twenty mile ride it will be a bit lower than the others. One of the cells in that bad group is draining the group. I believe it could be a cell with a small shunt. The voltage loss will amount to about 0.1 volts in a twenty mile ride. There are two possibilities to account for this. Either one group has a very small shunt in it and is leaking away power across the separator, or the group contains a weak cell of lower capacity which lowers the voltage of that group as it exhausts itself before all the other cells. I am going to take regular measurements of the voltage of that cell group to see if it is losing voltage all the time. If it does, then I will conclude that we have a leakage path in one of the cells of that group. That would mean scrapping the whole battery really, which would be a shame as I can get 30 to 40 miles out of it depending on terrain and muscle input.
January 9, 20251 yr Author https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/teenage-e-bike-rider-dies-34438630
January 9, 20251 yr I guess from the rapidity of your response and its content that you didn't trouble to read the research paper I referenced which was written by a group of Chinese automotive experts involved in safer battery development. Given that you haven't read it, I guess you also don't know about their research paper history either. So you say dendrites don't cause fires. Experts say they do. Who should I believe. I am sorry Dave to offend you. I don't want to offend you. I do like offending some people. You are not one of them, but I think you are wrong, and i think you are over relying on the experience you have in stating that dendrites are not a problem. People - many people involved at the cutting edge of battery development working in research centres take a view different to yours. 54 security experts, all of whom were very experienced and qualified, wrote a letter to say that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. I guess you believed them. Do you still believe them?
January 9, 20251 yr You are right that it is a manufacturing fault causing the fires, the faults being in the cell electrolyte, but it is you who is not getting it. It has long been established beyond question that slight imperfections in cell manufacture lead to the formation of metalic lithium crystals with sharp pointed growths that pierce insulation causing shorts leading to swelling and ultimately fires. And it was the urgency of very many fires in laptop batteries that led to that knowledge. So much for nobody experiencing those fires, we've even watched videos of then exploding out while idle and out of use and not charging, some in transit merely being carried or laid down. A few of our members have experienced the swelling up short of burning, as I have with a camera battery. That is why lithium batteries ARE so widely banned from flying, from many courier or postal services, or storage indoors. Quotes: "On February 12, 2013, the Wall Street Journal reported that Aviation safety investigators are examining whether the formation of microscopic structures known as dendrites inside the Boeing Co. 787's lithium-ion batteries played a role in twin incidents that prompted the fleet to be grounded nearly a month ago." "On November 13, 2017, a lithium-ion battery overheated on a United Airlines Boeing 787 during approach to Charles de Gaulle Airport. A spokesman for Boeing said, "the plane experienced a fault with a single cell". The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) released a report on December 1, 2014, and assigned blame to several groups:[3] GS Yuasa of Japan, for battery manufacturing methods that could introduce defects not caught by inspection Boeing's engineers, who failed to consider and test for worst-case battery failures The Federal Aviation Administration, that failed to recognize the potential hazard and did not require proper tests as part of its certification process "The FAA also announced plans to conduct an extensive review of the 787's critical systems. The review's focus was on the safety of the lithium-ion batteries[1] that use lithium cobalt oxide(LiCoO2) as the positive electrode. These electrodes are known for their thermal runaway hazard and provide oxygen for a fire." "The Japan Transport Safety Board (JTSB) has said on January 23 that the battery in ANA jets in Japan reached a maximum voltage of 31 V (i.e. they were operating within the 32 V limit as the Boston JAL 787 had been), but had a sudden unexplained voltage drop[38] to near zero.[39] All cells had signs of thermal damage before the thermal runaway." . When you look at all those bike fires, do you see a pattern, or are they all random ebikes that anybody could buy in their local ebike shop, like Wisper, Riese & Muller, Volt, Juicy, Cube, Haibike, etc? When people mess up, they'll blame anything but themselves. They latch on to the most complicated theoretical technical explanations they can because gullible people like you swallow them so easily.
January 9, 20251 yr When you look at all those bike fires, do you see a pattern, or are they all random ebikes that anybody could buy in their local ebike shop, like Wisper, Riese & Muller, Volt, Juicy, Cube, Haibike, etc? When people mess up, they'll blame anything but themselves. They latch on to the most complicated theoretical technical explanations they can because gullible people like you swallow them so easily. You are very clearly wrong but stubbornly refusing to accept that. The formation of dendrites and the way they cause fires is long established and absolutely not theoretical, as is the cause being insufficient care in cell construction. It's very difficult to completely eliminate them but as Tesla is showing now with the 18640s they now make for themselves, it's possible to make their incidence extremely rare. Unfortunately they have been unable so far to achieve that with the larger size 21700s or 4680s so are having to equip all models with between 7200 and 8000 18640 cells in each. They understand the dendrite problem only too well with all their fire problems and research into them, as do the most experienced Oriental cell makers, but you prefer to guess that there is another unknown cause without a shred of of evidence that is the case. It's your right to be as wrong as you wish, but don't try to infer I am gullible because I don't accept your very obvious error. LINK . Edited January 9, 20251 yr by flecc
January 9, 20251 yr Hi lenny, Cheers for taking the time to list ebike news, I find it very informative. Perhaps those who want to discuss topics in detail should start a new thread, just saying! Thanks Boots
January 9, 20251 yr 54 security experts, all of whom were very experienced and qualified, wrote a letter to say that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. I guess you believed them. Do you still believe them? 1. I have no interest in Hunter Biden. He is the troubled, drug addicted son of a soon to be ex-President of the United States who has been visibly degenerating into senescence for years. There are plenty of reasons to wonder how anyone in Joe Biden's condition was not taken out of office for the good of the country. His son's lap top is not one of them. Fathers are not responsible for the behaviour of their adult children. 2. You claim these 54 people commenting on Hunter Biden's laptop are 'security experts' and have found something. I have no idea who they are, what their qualifications are, or whether they are simply 'wannabe' internet warriors and fantasists. What are their bonafides? What are their qualifications? The fact that they are bothering to fanny about on the internet investigating a loser, troubled son of a senile President, suggests they are people of no account. 3. My 'experts' on the other hand ARE experts. They work for a significant research centre and publish academic papers on an academic website as part of the duty of science to publish research findings and enable replication of research. This is a world apart from the massive pile of shyte that is so called 'social media' - especially where it alides with the conspiracy numb-nuttery which goes by the title - Alternative Media. For some reason - surprising since you are a respected technical adviser on this site, with an engineering background, you have not engaged at all with the description of the phenomena by which lithium and copper dendrites are KNOWN to grow inside lithium cells, both damaging them in terms of their capacity to hold energy, and in some cases, growing to the extent of creating dangerous internal short circuits, and instead, bring up the matter of Hunter Biden's disreputable character - which I do not dispute at all. The point about Hunter Biden is that he is an embarrassment. The wonderful possibilities of the Internet have since about the turn of the century, been gradually undermined by the fact that anybody, and everybody on the planet can publish whatever they like and have it seen and repeated by millions of people. Since a proportion of them are in fact verging on insane, obsessed, deranged and unbalanced, we see ever more mad theories, malicious lies, and generally crazy lunacy being propagated around the planet. Academic papers are NOT the same. They are not all correct in their conclusions, but as part of the scientific mainstream, they are challenged when wrong and withdrawn. This is how science works I say to my nine year old grand son who is just dipping his toes into this online world; be very careful what you believe that you read online. Go to proper sources of authenticated expertise. Think about them, discuss them with sensible people and always use caution in deciding what is true.
January 9, 20251 yr You are very clearly wrong but stubbornly refusing to accept that. The formation of dendrites and the way they cause fires is long established and absolutely not theoretical, as is the cause being insufficient care in cell construction. It's very difficult to completely eliminate them but as Tesla is showing now with the 18640s they now make for themselves, it's possible to make their incidence extremely rare. Unfortunately they have been unable so far to achieve that with the larger size 21700s or 4680s so are having to equip all models with between 7200 and 8000 18640 cells in each. They understand the dendrite problem only too well with all their fire problems and research into them, as do the most experienced Oriental cell makers, but you prefer to guess that there is another unknown cause without a shred of of evidence that is the case. It's your right to be as wrong as you wish, but don't try to infer I am gullible because I don't accept your very obvious error. LINK . It isn't just bad cell construction. Perfectly good cells can become damaged and dangerous through misuse, specifically over-charging, and over discharging, and by charging cells when they are at too low a temperature. Each of these can damage a perfectly well made cell in the manner we have been discussing.
January 9, 20251 yr Adrian Chiles is guilty of hate speech against normal legal ebikes. He should be prosecuted for it. Send your complaint to the BBC and the police. There is no point at all about complaining to the BBC, unless you can get your complaint in front of a very high up person and this is extremely unlikely, though not impossible. The BBC is structurally designed to shed criticism like a duck sheds water. They are ALWAYS right. At least that is what they always say when people complain.
January 9, 20251 yr It isn't just bad cell construction. Perfectly good cells can become damaged and dangerous through misuse, specifically over-charging, and over discharging, and by charging cells when they are at too low a temperature. Each of these can damage a perfectly well made cell in the manner we have been discussing. I'd very long ago accepted that of course. I was arguing against Saneagle's insistence that dendrites as a cause are no better than theoretical. .
January 10, 20251 yr Author https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/09/brompton-bikes-delayed-because-parts-used-ukraine-drones/
January 10, 20251 yr 54 security experts, all of whom were very experienced and qualified, wrote a letter to say that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. I guess you believed them. Do you still believe them? Why this continuing obsession with Hunter Biden's laptop? WTF has this to do with eBike batteries catching fire?
January 10, 20251 yr There is no point at all about complaining to the BBC, unless you can get your complaint in front of a very high up person and this is extremely unlikely, though not impossible. The BBC is structurally designed to shed criticism like a duck sheds water. They are ALWAYS right. At least that is what they always say when people complain. You can always stop financing this institution.
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