I think https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/samsung-silver-battery.47700/ is about that same technology?

Samsung's uses Lithium donut say they don't. Samsung's doesn't claim 100,000 cycle life. We also know Samsung's is mass production ready while donut's isn't.

The thing that kind of bothers me a bit about donut's is their 100 degree Celsius test. It doesn't matter that the battery still works afterward. We can't have boiling electrolyte in our batteries. That would puff up the cell, damage the seal, make the battery extremely vulnerable to humidity which then kills the battery later when we don't expect. That guy 2 bit da Vinci didn't point out the dangers.

Samsung's uses Lithium donut say they don't. Samsung's doesn't claim 100,000 cycle life. We also know Samsung's is mass production ready while donut's isn't.

The thing that kind of bothers me a bit about donut's is their 100 degree Celsius test. It doesn't matter that the battery still works afterward. We can't have boiling electrolyte in our batteries. That would puff up the cell, damage the seal, make the battery extremely vulnerable to humidity which then kills the battery later when we don't expect. That guy 2 bit da Vinci didn't point out the dangers.

 

Question - I have no position:

 

Are solid electrolyte cells as vulnerable to high temperatures as liquid electrolyte cells?

 

I think they can stand high temperatures.

 

They have other problems such as needing strong clamping forces to keep the electrolyte in proper contact with the the anode and cathode material.

 

I am not taking a position or advocating for Donut Batteries. There are MANY MANY red flags, but I think I will wait to see how this plays out.

I would add -

 

If this Donut guy is running a scam and promoting a dud, the reputational damage will be almost equivalent to being Epstein's best email buddy.

 

He will never be taken seriously again - ever, and neither will any enterprise he associates with.

 

That fact alone convinces me to stand back and withhold judgement.

Are solid electrolyte cells as vulnerable to high temperatures as liquid electrolyte cells?

There is no liquid in SSBs, so for the electrolyte to reach a decomposition stage, the temperature of the cell will have to well exceed 500 degree Celsius. There are a lot of battery manufacturers which can make semi-solid state batteries but they still haven't got to make solid interphase contact with the solid electrodes so they use a small amount of liquid electrolyte for the junction.

LFP can already withstand 300 degree C so any cell we make now has to be much better than that. In case of physical damage to the cell pack, the higher temperature the better. Don't forget that when we use 400WH/kg cells, the energy that pack contains is double what the current LFP packs of the same size would release. 300C won't be enough.

 

If this Donut guy is running a scam and promoting a dud, the reputational damage will be almost equivalent to being Epstein's best email buddy.

the common do or die issue for all startups is the need to raise capitals. Some, even the biggest ones like Grok or Open AI will be forced to do whatever it takes to get funding.

Edited March 11Mar 11 by Woosh

I would add -

 

If this Donut guy is running a scam and promoting a dud, the reputational damage will be almost equivalent to being Epstein's best email buddy.

 

He will never be taken seriously again - ever, and neither will any enterprise he associates with.

 

That fact alone convinces me to stand back and withhold judgement.

If his battery was any good, he'd dish out samples for everybody to test. Why do you think everything is so secretive?

If his battery was any good, he'd dish out samples for everybody to test. Why do you think everything is so secretive?

 

The presentation and secrecy are red flags for sure, but -

 

I may be mistaken about this, but I think I remember there was talk about the patent process not being complete, and keeping ahead of competition while they were arranging to build batteries at scale. I can't remember if those were remarks made by Lehtimäki, or remarks in youtube commentary. They will also likely need vast investment to ramp up production.

 

Lehtimäki has exaggerated before over an AI venture.

 

The hype generated this time though is of an order that would ruin him forever if these claims are just invention.

 

AI summary of reasons for slow release of information by Marco Lehtimäki and Donut Labs:

 

https://share.google/aimode/QBWMed2Z49KolP91Q

The presentation and secrecy are red flags for sure, but -

 

I may be mistaken about this, but I think I remember there was talk about the patent process not being complete, and keeping ahead of competition while they were arranging to build batteries at scale. I can't remember if those were remarks made by Lehtimäki, or remarks in youtube commentary. They will also likely need vast investment to ramp up production.

 

Lehtimäki has exaggerated before over an AI venture.

 

The hype generated this time though is of an order that would ruin him forever if these claims are just invention.

 

AI summary of reasons for slow release of information by Marco Lehtimäki and Donut Labs:

 

https://share.google/aimode/QBWMed2Z49KolP91Q

Do you remember the Elizabeth Holmes Theranos fraud? She was a research scientist, who filed patents for her invention. People invested billions in it until the company was worth $9 billion, then they found out that there was nothing to sell.

 

I'm still not sure if she was a victim or a criminal.

Do you remember the Elizabeth Holmes Theranos fraud? She was a research scientist, who filed patents for her invention. People invested billions in it until the company was worth $9 billion, then they found out that there was nothing to sell.

 

I'm still not sure if she was a victim or a criminal.

 

I hope it isn't like that. I'm still reserving judgement. Could be a total con, could be a big step forward. The thread title asks the question, 'Novel discovery or puffed up ridiculous claims?'

 

I'm hoping its a step forward - for all the obvious flags, but I don't know.

 

If it is a con - that guy with an impossible to remember name better have a good hiding place. Investors and police will be after him for sure.

 

EDIT:

 

Saw a reference the other day to some missing crypto queen who stole maybe billions - a vast sum anyway. Yes it does happen, but those people will always be looking over their shoulders for the people with handcuffs,

I hope it isn't like that. I'm still reserving judgement. Could be a total con, could be a big step forward. The thread title asks the question, 'Novel discovery or puffed up ridiculous claims?'

 

I'm hoping its a step forward - for all the obvious flags, but I don't know.

 

If it is a con - that guy with an impossible to remember name better have a good hiding place. Investors and police will be after him for sure.

 

EDIT:

 

Saw a reference the other day to some missing crypto queen who stole maybe billions - a vast sum anyway. Yes it does happen, but those people will always be looking over their shoulders for the people with handcuffs,

My guess is that there's something there, but not what is being claimed, otherwise they'd be talking to EV producers, not the press.

My guess is that there's something there,

I reckon the donut's is a semi-solilid Sodium-ion doped with Manganese.

That's what I would do if I were in their place. 4V, cheap, safe, up to 10C charging, 10,000 cycles. Available commercial models.

Edited March 12Mar 12 by Woosh

My guess is that there's something there, but not what is being claimed, otherwise they'd be talking to EV producers, not the press.

 

The weekly drip feed is a tantalising way of releasing information. They are probably fielding lots of offers of capital for shares right now. If they are, the investors will have an appetite for risk. Reminds me of the scam during the South Sea Bubble of 1720 which advertised itself like this:

 

"A Company for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is".

 

More details of that particular scam here:

 

https://share.google/aimode/tRhmsWzSgheyprHQC

 

Hilariously, the originator of this wonderful undertaking was described in the prospectus as, "An unknown, anonymous man of genius"

 

They ran away with 2,000 guineas, closed the office, and immediately left for the continent with the money, never to be heard from again.

 

That amount is half a million pounds in present day money.

Edited March 12Mar 12 by Tony1951

A bit of positive news to report.

'Donut Lab Development UK Ltd was awarded a grant of up to £550,635 through fair and open competition, to develop a robot-automated, flexible micro-production facility for prototype ultra-high-torque, in-wheel electric motors for on-road use.'

 

Direct to me from the new DOI (DTB?). So not a multi-million disaster for the UK.

Interesting...

 

'One per week' sound code for 'no bikes on retail sale this year'

28 minutes ago, alanbonne said:

'One per week' sound code for 'no bikes on retail sale this year'

How many test riders do they have? There are only about 50 employees. They can't all be test riders.

Edited April 11Apr 11 by D8veh

There real difficulty is to justify the 100,000 cycle claim.

The rest is doable but not by a small company.

28 minutes ago, Woosh said:

There real difficulty is to justify the 100,000 cycle claim.

The rest is doable but not by a small company.

The claim has I think slithered a bit. The website doesn't any longer claim that the battery is good for 100,000 cycles, but that it is 'designed' for 100,000 cycles. Not at all the same thing.

I watched the April the first video which was pretty ridiculous, with a bizarre beginning, and during the later part of that, the Fat Fin - Marko - I think he is called - admitted that they obviously could never have put a cell through 100,000 charge - deplete - charge cycles, simply because of the time that would take. He now says that based on the testing they have done, it looks like it will last pretty much for 100,000 cycles. It was a mad claim anyway. In use, a battery that would last that long would last for a hundred years. Most vehicles spend the vast majority of the time, standing empty and parked.

I think D8veh is right - there is likely something there in the new battery - which Donut did not invent, by the way - they acquired an interest in partner battery / capacitor company with some sort of electrode printing technology, and partnered up with a very niche motorcycle company.

I am losing patience with the approach that the company has taken. They are obviously attempting to create a wave of interest and hoping for perhaps a tsunami of investment to take forward some sort of discovery, but it is all shrouded in dishonesty and subterfuge and scam marketing.

Edited April 12Apr 12 by Tony1951

32 minutes ago, Tony1951 said:

I think D8veh is right - there is likely something there in the new battery - which Donut did not invent, by the way - they acquired an interest in partner battery / capacitor company with some sort of electrode printing technology, and partnered up with a very niche motorcycle company.

You are right. I forgot all about their claim of using screen printing techniques to manufacture their batteries. That would make theirs cheaper to make on infrastructure alone.

Assuming that they would go ahead with using screen printing, the only printable chemistry to offer that sort of claimed density (400wh/kg) is silver oxide zinc.

Is the ‘Holy Grail of batteries’ finally ready to bless us with its presence?

Finnish startup Donut Lab claims it’s made a solid-state battery breakthrough. Whether you believe it or not, the technology does appear to be more than just hype.

https://www.theverge.com/transportation/909480/solid-state-battery-donut-lab-ev-china

10 hours ago, lenny said:

Finnish startup Donut Lab claims it’s made a solid-state battery breakthrough. Whether you believe it or not, the technology does appear to be more than just hype.

I don't believe their commercials. You recently posted a link to ultrasonic welding (USW) to weld the solid state electrolyte to Lithium. This is a solution to a major obstacle beside using a sheet of silver or gold to plate the electrolyte before laminating the Lithium sheet. Sonut's screen printing wouldn't work.

To me, the whole thing is exaggerated because of too many mutually exclusive claims.

I'm getting rather impatient with the drip feed of information from Donut about the battery.

It is pretty obvious that they are milking it to drum up inward investment as much as they possibly can.

Yahoo News

Donut Lab's battery claims reportedly subject of whistleb...

At executive at a Donut Lab partner has reportedly contacted Finnish authorities.

Is there leeway for police involvement? Probably, Lauri Peltola, was one of the founding members and commercial director of Nordic Nano Group. I guess he was horrified by it all.

Edited April 18Apr 18 by alanbonne
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