Thanks to Dynamic Position and The Mutiny for the comments

 

I must admit having looked further at bike weights and read comments about how hard riding an e-bike with power off can be I was beginning to wonder if this was really a good set of options.

 

Just at the right moment you have nudged my curiosity in the direction of the Cytronex system - potentially an e-bike I can happily ride without assistance and only use the power when I want a kick up the hills. Think I will have to try this out as well before making a final choice.

 

The battery degradation issues raised above are a concern - is my proposal to commute 20 miles each way that unusual an idea? If anyone else is regularly using an e-bike to cover 200 miles a week, week after week I`d be interested to hear how their batteries have feared.

 

Still learning lots just from searching this forum

 

Thanks again for the replies

 

Bob_about

Bob, the cycle to work scheme has not been mentioned so far, makes the initial puchase much less painful if your employer will subscribe.

 

I am finding the costs of 'consumables' to be greater than anticipated. £90 two weeks ago (2 x Schwalbe M+, tubes, gas inflator, patches) and £30 last week, when I hit a kerb at speed and bent the front rim.

 

I cover 160 miles a week, charging both ends is necessary, but I am using SLAs, so not much help on that front!

Interesting thread, thankfully I don't have to depend on a bike to commute 40miles but if I had to here's what I think I would do...

 

Please feel free to shoot the idea down in flames but how about this...I would not spend 2K+ on a single bike, if 2K is the sort of budget being considered I would buy two bikes say a prime bike like the Wisper and a back up bike like the Alien...although the issue with this is you have two different batteries and two different bikes with different fixtures and fittings....so how about two identical lower cost E-Bikes with the ability to interchange parts and batteries that come in at around £1200-£1400 the pair and with the difference bring both of them up to a better and more reliable spec.

 

With two bikes you will always have a bike to hand if there is an issue with one and one of the batteries can be kept (and charged) at work, simply rotate the battery each day. This will extend battery life and push out replacement cost...of course when the time comes you will have the expense of two batteries to replace instead of one. With a commercial bike I would go with two batteries whatever one you decide to go with...

 

The only other alternative is to go DIY, buy a decent touring bike, an e-bike kit, and build your own battery...you then have the flexibility of making the battery as large as you like (40miles would not be a problem ) and battery replacement costs would be a lot less than any commercial offering. Just my 2p worth of thoughts.

The battery degradation issues raised above are a concern - is my proposal to commute 20 miles each way that unusual an idea? If anyone else is regularly using an e-bike to cover 200 miles a week, week after week I`d be interested to hear how their batteries have feared.

I do nearly 200 miles a week (weekend working tops it up) and my battery is about 18 months old, so far it is showing no signs of degrading. I charge it at home and work as batteries last longer with shallow charging cycles rather than being run flat.

 

Interesting thread, thankfully I don't have to depend on a bike to commute 40miles but if I had to here's what I think I would do...

 

Please feel free to shoot the idea down in flames but how about this...I would not spend 2K+ on a single bike, if 2K is the sort of budget being considered I would buy two bikes say a prime bike like the Wisper and a back up bike like the Alien...although the issue with this is you have two different batteries and two different bikes with different fixtures and fittings....so how about two identical lower cost E-Bikes with the ability to interchange parts and batteries that come in at around £1200-£1400 the pair and with the difference bring both of them up to a better and more reliable spec.

 

With two bikes you will always have a bike to hand if there is an issue with one and one of the batteries can be kept (and charged) at work, simply rotate the battery each day. This will extend battery life and push out replacement cost...of course when the time comes you will have the expense of two batteries to replace instead of one. With a commercial bike I would go with two batteries whatever one you decide to go with...

 

The only other alternative is to go DIY, buy a decent touring bike, an e-bike kit, and build your own battery...you then have the flexibility of making the battery as large as you like (40miles would not be a problem ) and battery replacement costs would be a lot less than any commercial offering. Just my 2p worth of thoughts.

I don't see the point myself, I've had plenty of problems but not enough to make buying a second electric bike worthwhile (I have a normal backup bike). The second bike would just sit there whilst the battery slowly degraded.

Two cheaper bikes may be no good if they don't ride as well as an expensive one. I know a guy with a £600 electric bike and he is uninspired by it, he wants to get more use out of it but doesn't like riding it. He is a two wheel addict with some unusual rides so it's not because he can't be bothered.

40 miles a day is a lot and I'd hate to do it on a cheaper bike.

That's why I mentioned about bringing it up to a better spec. Wouldn't take much, tyres, brakes etc and the second battery wouldn't go to waste as it would be rotated with the other....anyhow it was just a thought...

Bob, the cycle to work scheme has not been mentioned so far, makes the initial puchase much less painful if your employer will subscribe.!

 

My employer is about to subscribe, but I dont think it will be any good for me. There is a cap for bike and equipment at £1000 and I anticipate spending more than that. The scheme runs on the basis of 12 lease payments which would be based on the purchase price, less the tax & NI - so yes a saving, but at the end of this the bike still belongs to the employer, not me. There would then be a valuation to reflect true market value of the bike and I could purchase the bike for that cost. With an e-bike it is likely the market value after 12 months, plus the 12 lease payments would end up greater than the original purchase price! I think some employers let the bike go for a final 13th payment the same as the previous 12 payments, were this to be the case, yes it could work, but our guys seem fixed on the "fair market price" element.

 

I cover 160 miles a week, charging both ends is necessary, but I am using SLAs, so not much help on that front!

 

Sorry - dont know what an SLA is in this case so dont kmnow if I need to get one ?!

 

Thanks for the comments - and ref consumables I know all about big surprises there believe me, I have driven some interesting vehicles over the years which have swallowed thousands!!

 

All the best for the break

 

Bob_about

I do nearly 200 miles a week (weekend working tops it up) and my battery is about 18 months old, so far it is showing no signs of degrading. I charge it at home and work as batteries last longer with shallow charging cycles rather than being run flat..

 

Thanks for that - good to hear - I have secured permission to charge up at work, so could be looking at two shallow charges per day.

 

You say there has been no degradation, how do you know? Is there a relaible way to test? I only ask based on the premise that e-bikes are effectively hybrids of muscle power and elec and as time goes on your muscles will get stronger. So it could be the case that as the battery declines, your legs get better, and the jorney times remain the same?!

 

Just a thought - if there is a way to reliably tell by how much a battery has dropped off it would be good to know

 

Cheers and thanks again

 

Bob_about

Thanks for the idea NRG, but probably wont go this way

 

I will always have back-up alternatives available to get to work which is a luxury I know. I also feel strongly that you tend to get what you pay for and so am prepared to pay the cash to get a quality product whichever way I decide to go.

 

I also recall having kept one more car than we needed for a while on the same premise - that didnt work and more money went out of the bank! (although with my boy just turning 17 it would now be handy to have a "spare" car!)

 

The DIY route really is not going to work for me, but I have great respect for those who can sort these things out.

 

Thanks for your ideas

 

Bob_about

 

 

 

Interesting thread, thankfully I don't have to depend on a bike to commute 40miles but if I had to here's what I think I would do...

 

Please feel free to shoot the idea down in flames but how about this...I would not spend 2K+ on a single bike, if 2K is the sort of budget being considered I would buy two bikes say a prime bike like the Wisper and a back up bike like the Alien...although the issue with this is you have two different batteries and two different bikes with different fixtures and fittings....so how about two identical lower cost E-Bikes with the ability to interchange parts and batteries that come in at around £1200-£1400 the pair and with the difference bring both of them up to a better and more reliable spec.

 

With two bikes you will always have a bike to hand if there is an issue with one and one of the batteries can be kept (and charged) at work, simply rotate the battery each day. This will extend battery life and push out replacement cost...of course when the time comes you will have the expense of two batteries to replace instead of one. With a commercial bike I would go with two batteries whatever one you decide to go with...

 

The only other alternative is to go DIY, buy a decent touring bike, an e-bike kit, and build your own battery...you then have the flexibility of making the battery as large as you like (40miles would not be a problem ) and battery replacement costs would be a lot less than any commercial offering. Just my 2p worth of thoughts.

I think the work around for "cycle to work" is to pay for a battery yourself, and get retailer to invoice bike for £1000. I am sure others who have done this will explain.......

No problem Bob, if you have alternative transport options then two bikes are indeed a waste! ...as regard to batteries they all degrade, it comes down to how many cycles they will last given the usage pattern...loads of good reading here:

 

How to prolong lithium-based batteries

You say there has been no degradation, how do you know? Is there a relaible way to test? I only ask based on the premise that e-bikes are effectively hybrids of muscle power and elec and as time goes on your muscles will get stronger. So it could be the case that as the battery declines, your legs get better, and the jorney times remain the same?!

 

Just a thought - if there is a way to reliably tell by how much a battery has dropped off it would be good to know

I don't know for sure but when I first got it I could just get to work and back on one charge, recently I've forgotten to charge the battery at work and still been able to get home without loads of pedaling.

There's no noticable drop in power as the battery is used, it pretty much provides full assistance until it cuts out.

Thanks for the idea NRG, but probably wont go this way

 

I will always have back-up alternatives available to get to work which is a luxury I know. I also feel strongly that you tend to get what you pay for and so am prepared to pay the cash to get a quality product whichever way I decide to go.

 

I also recall having kept one more car than we needed for a while on the same premise - that didnt work and more money went out of the bank! (although with my boy just turning 17 it would now be handy to have a "spare" car!)

 

The DIY route really is not going to work for me, but I have great respect for those who can sort these things out.

 

Thanks for your ideas

 

Bob_about

 

My e-bike acts as a back-up to the car. I'm in a similar position with my son also turning 17 next year. When you factor this into the scheme of things the cost of an e-bike is a fraction of the cost of the increase in car insurance premiums! What happens when the kids pass their driving test? At least with a decent e-bike you can still commute to work. I'm preparing for events now, when I go for a cycle run with the kids I make sure that they always beat me when racing.

I would like to experiment with e-bike kits, especially with the Cytronex system. Perhaps this is something I might do as a project with my son?

Sorry - dont know what an SLA is in this case so dont kmnow if I need to get one ?!

No-one has answered this, so: SLA = sealed lead acid, like a car battery really.

My employer is about to subscribe, but I dont think it will be any good for me. There is a cap for bike and equipment at £1000 and I anticipate spending more than that. The scheme runs on the basis of 12 lease payments which would be based on the purchase price, less the tax & NI - so yes a saving, but at the end of this the bike still belongs to the employer, not me. There would then be a valuation to reflect true market value of the bike and I could purchase the bike for that cost. With an e-bike it is likely the market value after 12 months, plus the 12 lease payments would end up greater than the original purchase price! I think some employers let the bike go for a final 13th payment the same as the previous 12 payments, were this to be the case, yes it could work, but our guys seem fixed on the "fair market price" element.

Bob_about

 

When I first read this I thought What a stingy lot! - and I couldn't imagine anyone subscribing under those terms...

 

However I think it's the case that your employer isn't allowed to tell you what the fair market value will be up front.

 

If you have a look here:

 

Tax free bikes for work through the Government's Green Transport Initiative - Cyclescheme, provider of Cycle to Work schemes for UK employers

 

It says:

Most employers opt to sell you the bike and accessories, and you will pay the fair market value; this is the amount that a buyer would pay to a seller to purchase the bike and equipment. Each bike is assessed separately, but in our experience the market shows values to be around 5% of the original voucher value plus VAT. The fair market value cannot be stated before or during the scheme as this could be considered a benefit in kind as hire-purchase does not warrant any tax-relief.

When I first read this I thought What a stingy lot! - and I couldn't imagine anyone subscribing under those terms...

 

However I think it's the case that your employer isn't allowed to tell you what the fair market value will be up front.

 

Agreed - what they are proposing is to state how they will asses "fair market value" and have decided that comparisons with similar bikes sold on e-bay or internet sites will be used as a guide.

 

From my own reseearch on this I have seen that 12 month old e-bikes go for a good bit more than 5% of their original cost

 

(if I am wrong and anyone wants to sell me a 12 month old Wisper 905se for £75 please get in touch!)

 

This is where I feel there is a risk that 12 months lease costs plus the fair market value would exceede the full origonal price therefore making the scheme pointless for an e-bike

 

As stated, negotiation into fair price cannot be undertaken at the point the agreement is set, so you would have no option but to let it run for 12 months and hope for a reasonable settlement fee. If its not forthcoming, then I could just leave the bike in the ownership of my employer and walk away, but that leaves me several hundred quid down and no bike!

 

Once again I think its a good plan from the government with the right intentions, but not properly thought through and relies on get rounds and bending the rules to make it work. It would be far simpler if they just said e-bikes used for commuting do not need to pay VAT and attract a £300 subsidy after 6 months regular use (or some such)!

 

All the best

 

Bob_about

Agreed - what they are proposing is to state how they will asses "fair market value" and have decided that comparisons with similar bikes sold on e-bay or internet sites will be used as a guide.

 

From my own reseearch on this I have seen that 12 month old e-bikes go for a good bit more than 5% of their original cost

 

(if I am wrong and anyone wants to sell me a 12 month old Wisper 905se for £75 please get in touch!)

 

This is where I feel there is a risk that 12 months lease costs plus the fair market value would exceede the full origonal price therefore making the scheme pointless for an e-bike

 

As stated, negotiation into fair price cannot be undertaken at the point the agreement is set, so you would have no option but to let it run for 12 months and hope for a reasonable settlement fee. If its not forthcoming, then I could just leave the bike in the ownership of my employer and walk away, but that leaves me several hundred quid down and no bike!

 

Once again I think its a good plan from the government with the right intentions, but not properly thought through and relies on get rounds and bending the rules to make it work. It would be far simpler if they just said e-bikes used for commuting do not need to pay VAT and attract a £300 subsidy after 6 months regular use (or some such)!

 

All the best

 

Bob_about

 

I see what you mean. I was hoping to get a bike next year on the scheme and I'm sure the company I work for will bend the rules as to make it attractive to the employees (mainly because the person responsible for introducing the scheme is a keen cyclist himself!).

 

I agree with your point though that it is not well thought through. Ebay valuation is certainly not putting the emplyee first and I'd be very surprised if there are any takers.