Hi Tilson

 

I appreciate your comments, but I think you'd be shocked at the development and production costs. All our new style batteries (starting with the Hybrid 24) will now have CAN bus functionality so you can run analysis on the battery : no. of times charged etc and again this costs money to develop and produce.

 

I appreciate your comments, being a consumer of 'tech' goods myself too I begrudge paying over the odds for spares and accessories. But we certainly don't make killer margins on them like Apple and other big tech manufacturers!

 

Thanks

Mark

 

This is a leading question: Why do we need that functionality, is it for your benefit or the consumers?

This is a leading question: Why do we need that functionality, is it for your benefit or the consumers?

 

Its for the dealer and customer more than anything. When you buy a second hand bike or trade in with a car or scooter you can look at the mileage, on a bike you can't. This functionality will ensure the dealer can value correctly and the would be purchaser knows what they are buying.

 

Hope that makes sense? For us, of course it helps with warranty claims as we appreciate this is an expensive part of the bike.

I'm in no doubt that the wholesale cost of batteries is probably quite high and I suspect that the retailers aren't making massive margins on them.

 

I'm not convinced regarding the BMS and case though. The case is a box and the BMS is an assortment of cheap components. I know that there are design and tooling costs to factor in, but mankind has been making boxes for a while now and BMS have been developed across a range of applications.

 

I am disgusted with myself for saying that I will end up buying one of the new 18Ah batteries for my Pro Connect in the full knowledge that I am being exploited. The thing is, I have no choice, the expensive bike is useless without the battery and so I have to buy one. I know that, the manufacturer knows that and so does the retailer. Why should they sell their batteries at a reasonable price with a fair margin of profit and with a realistic claim of life expectancy?

 

It's bad enough parting with the cash in full knowledge that I am being taken for a bit of a mug, but please spare me the bollocks about boxes, components and magic fairy dust. I'll pay up. Just leave it at that.

 

I'm not convinced either Tillson, I wonder why companies do not offer a re-cell service to save on the expensive cost of case and BMS

Its for the dealer and customer more than anything. When you buy a second hand bike or trade in with a car or scooter you can look at the mileage, on a bike you can't. This functionality will ensure the dealer can value correctly and the would be purchaser knows what they are buying.

 

Hope that makes sense? For us, of course it helps with warranty claims as we appreciate this is an expensive part of the bike.

 

OK, that's the real reason, its for your benefit. E-Bikes are pretty low tech low cost items compared to cars and consumer gadget devices etc. The extra complexity you are engineering in is not driven by customer demand, all he really wants is value and low cost of ownership.

I'm not convinced either Tillson, I wonder why companies do not offer a re-cell service to save on the expensive cost of case and BMS

 

NRG- its too expensive and goes away from our core business. In the 'Motor Vehicle' world this is a service that a dealer would offer, rather than a manufacturer. For example they would re-build your engine. Maybe this is a business opportunity for you?

 

We also have to stress, that high battery prices aren't favoured by us either as it will obviously restrict uptake (the whole reason for this thread). So anything that can be done to reduce this is welcomed. Our targets are around selling bikes, not batteries...

OK, that's the real reason, its for your benefit. E-Bikes are pretty low tech low cost items compared to cars and consumer gadget devices etc. The extra complexity you are engineering in is not driven by customer demand, all he really wants is value and low cost of ownership.

 

Its a dual benefit. If that were the case then we may as well stop any innovation and leave things as they are. Our consumer base is obviously different to the customers you perceive we have.

 

Our customers strive to have something different that other manufacturers don't offer in terms of design and technology. So we are continually developing new technology which you will see rolled out over the next 12- 18 months.

 

I don't want to steer the thread away from the initial question. If you look into our iDEP technology you'll see that we are actually working on reducing battery costs, to be pioneered by our Excel model.

The reason for the thread is that the OP is disgusted at the cost of battery replacement for his E-Bike. The secondary point is the limiting effect this has on take up. You are into selling bikes, understood, how are you going to increase your sales and customer service....where does customer service come in if the customer is turned off a year or two years down the road because he's forced to pay for an overtly expensive replacement battery.

 

I am being deliberately argumentative because this issue affects all who buy a commercial E-Bike and I don't think, today, manufacturers really have the best interests of the customer at heart. To grow the market and your business then the cost of ownership has to be factored in and lowered accordingly....maybe it means the bike ASP needs to be higher or maybe a leased scheme for the battery is needed so replacement cost is spread out over many months...

I have made a NiMH pack out of 10Ah Ansmann D cells and they don't like suppyling the 10 to 15 amp outputs very much but my 4.5Ah Ansmann Racing sub C cells are superb.

So..... yes NiMH are great but depends on the quality of the cells and yes the best ones are more expensive.

I was giving serious thought to making a NiMH pack from batteries supplied by component-shop Home

These are less than 6quid each, in quantity...

VTE10000D

And the low self-discharge option is attractive, but it's max discharge isn't...

IN8000D ... though I suspect it's a typo and should be 16,000mA

Do you want a Piaggio ET4 or an electric bicycle?

 

Make it a GTS 125 i.e. Super in black!

Hear, Hear, getting rid of high quality D cell NiMh production in favour of lithium was a huge mistake.

 

They were a bit heavier, but they worked, were reliable, were cheaper when in full production and they lasted.

.

 

I have a LiPol and NiMH battery, some cells are leaking in the NiMH, but I will be replacing both batteries (when the time comes) with NiMH cells. Li batteries are not worth the money.

Edited November 12, 201015 yr by Northern Irelander

Gents:

 

Just thought I'd add a manufacturer/distributors perspective.

 

Batteries are expensive to buy. Although Li-ion has been around for a long time there are also complex BMS systems to install and manage. Then if you also look at the Ultra Motor range of batteries they come packaged in a high quality case, which costs a lot to design, create moulds and ultimately produce.

 

The new Fast4ward bikes use a slightly lower cost style of case (but still use Panasonic cells) and as such batteries will start around £300, maybe just below.

 

I think the key is, with anything, pick the quality level you want and the price will follow. Both ours are Sanyo or Panasonic cells, in quality cases and as such production costs are high. I'll also echo Flecc's point that we could probably make a lot more money in a different industry.

 

I don't think profit is a dirty word that should be ignored or avoided. Profit is crucial to pay staff, build the economy, please stakeholders and of course ensure we are here to keep bringing new innovative products but also support those that we have already put into the market. As long as you receive good value for money then I believe there's nothing wrong with profit.

 

I hope this gives you a better understanding. I do appreciate batteries aren't cheap and it is a big consideration when purchasing a bike- but quality costs.

 

I'm still not convinced, the ridiculously high price of some batteries is not sustainable. Over pricing themselves out of a sale.

 

Since the introduction of WEEE and batteries regulation, the supplier has to take back the batteries free of charge, or point the owner to one of 7 battery schemes on mainland UK.

 

Under the regulations all automotive and industrial batteries for power tools(that includes ebike batteries classed as industrial as they propel something) can no longer go to landfill.

 

I know some on here say the Li can't be recycled but speaking to a waste operative who wants to set up micro collection of batteries in NI, they claim there is inherent value in Li batteries.

 

The price of metal has rocketed in the last couple of years, so whilst raw materials rise, an incentive to the ebiker would be to offer cash back on the old batteries.

Edited November 12, 201015 yr by Northern Irelander

I've labored my view on this but none of the bike suppliers offer a trade in scheme for batteries despite the apparent high cost of case and BMS. The WEEE directive is interesting as I've first hand experience of having to implement this for computer parts, it would be informative to understand where bike suppliers stand on this.

The trouble with current NiMh D cellls is the quality/cost/performance balance. When they were in large scale production before lithium took over, good quality very high discharge rating NiMh D cells were available at reasonable prices.

 

That is no longer the case, acceptable prices mean cells that simply don't perform on the highest powered legal e-bikes, and I'm saying that from experience of failures. Another factor is consistency, it's important that series NiMh cells match well, but batches these days can be very inconsistent, making it necessary to overbuy to get a set that match reasonably well, increasing the price, which at circa £10 per cell is unwelcome.

 

Matching necessity and it's production costs and wastage was a major factor in manufacturers wanting out of NiMh and into lithium rapidly.

.

I am glad to say I dont have the problem at the moment runnning old converted rickshaw and tricycle and as I run on lead acid.But the day will come when I will want a new lithium one for my Powabyke X24.

Can I have a free one Frank?

cash back on old batteries

 

i'm not sure if they still offer this, but wisper would offer £50 off new battery when trading in old.

The reason for the thread is that the OP is disgusted at the cost of battery replacement for his E-Bike. The secondary point is the limiting effect this has on take up. You are into selling bikes, understood, how are you going to increase your sales and customer service....where does customer service come in if the customer is turned off a year or two years down the road because he's forced to pay for an overtly expensive replacement battery.

 

I am being deliberately argumentative because this issue affects all who buy a commercial E-Bike and I don't think, today, manufacturers really have the best interests of the customer at heart. To grow the market and your business then the cost of ownership has to be factored in and lowered accordingly....maybe it means the bike ASP needs to be higher or maybe a leased scheme for the battery is needed so replacement cost is spread out over many months...

 

Sorry for delayed response, was a very proud boyfriend yesterday as my Girlfriend qualified as a midwife so had to dash!

 

Its the same in any vehicle industry- there is a limited warranty, but the service comes in looking after the customer post warranty. In most markets you can then get 'unbranded' components, which I sure will happen with e-bikes?

 

Don't worry- its good to be challenged and kept on our toes Until numbers increase and we can negotiate further with supplier I don't think prices will be coming down. If you look at a Vectrix (Electric motorcycle), I used to work for them and their battery packs were in excess of £4000 for a NiMH....I agree with the leasing model and am doing a bit of research into it at the moment. I truly believe this is a good avenue to go.

I'm still not convinced, the ridiculously high price of some batteries is not sustainable. Over pricing themselves out of a sale.

 

Since the introduction of WEEE and batteries regulation, the supplier has to take back the batteries free of charge, or point the owner to one of 7 battery schemes on mainland UK.

 

Under the regulations all automotive and industrial batteries for power tools(that includes ebike batteries classed as industrial as they propel something) can no longer go to landfill.

 

I know some on here say the Li can't be recycled but speaking to a waste operative who wants to set up micro collection of batteries in NI, they claim there is inherent value in Li batteries.

 

The price of metal has rocketed in the last couple of years, so whilst raw materials rise, an incentive to the ebiker would be to offer cash back on the old batteries.

I also used to be involved in the waste sector (all of 4 months!) and know about WEEE, we as a supplier have to be registered and give reports as to what has been returned and recycled (by the ton). There is value in Nickel as a metal, but by the time you recycle it all profit is gone and we still have to pay to have them taken away. If this will change, I don't know?

If you look at a Vectrix (Electric motorcycle), I used to work for them and their battery packs were in excess of £4000 for a NiMH....I agree with the leasing model and am doing a bit of research into it at the moment. I truly believe this is a good avenue to go.

 

Last week I was a guest at an IMI discussion about the impact of electric scooters and motorcycles in the motor industry. One of the key discussions was around standardisation of batteries and leasing schemes. And one of the key walls preventing wider uptake was the Insurance and Finance industry who wouldn't cover or provide finance because they knew nothing about these strange new-fangled things.

 

If you were involved with Vectrix, you maybe know my journalist friend Paul Blezard who got me the invite. Between Paul, Cedric Lynch and myself we provided a passionate but probably extremely strange viewpoint to the suits who provide consultancy to the industry.

I see no reason why there are so many different types of battery case. What is needed is one standard case for 24v motors, and one for 36v that will fit any ebike manufactured for the UK from 2012. That will bring the cost per unit down, make life a lot simpler for owners of more than one make of bike, and open the battery market up to more battery manufacturers.

 

Colin

For those who still insist that e-bikers are being ripped of with battery prices, take a sobering look at these final prices before launch of some electric cars before the end of this year:

 

Nissan Leaf (golf size small car) £28,990, almost half that is the battery.

 

Cap Monitor, one of the companies that sets resale values has opted for 40% after 3 years, so nearly £6000 a year depreciation on a small family car. Opt to keep it instead and risk needing a replacement battery at circa £14,000.

 

Citroen C-Zero and Peugeot iOn are modified Mitsubishi i-Miev cars, tiny barely four seaters that they will only lease. £498 per month for 4 years when it's handed back in, so almost £24,000 with no recovery value afterwards, again circa £6,000 a year, but for a micro car this time. Worse still, 90 miles range if treated very gently, halved if the performance is fully used.

 

e-car battery life is claimed to be 8 to 10 years and 125,000 to 150,000 miles. Now then, stop laughing at the back there.

 

Suddenly e-biking doesn't seem to be so bad.

.

Edited November 13, 201015 yr by flecc

I am looking for a smaller replacement for our focus..was thinking of a fiesta but fuel consumption not much better then petrol focus:(

 

So tried a Fiat 500 last week (the new tax and congestion charge exempt 80 mile per gallon multi air or twin air not available till early 2011) But it is a bit small, have just seen the Skoda Fabia 3 cylinder diesel, same kinda spec but 4 doors and a bit more practical I would think...

 

any thoughts? or other other recommendations appreciated:)

 

you get a £5000 rebate from government on an electric car...nothing for a bike, damn their stupidity!

Sorry for delayed response, was a very proud boyfriend yesterday as my Girlfriend qualified as a midwife so had to dash!

 

Its the same in any vehicle industry- there is a limited warranty, but the service comes in looking after the customer post warranty. In most markets you can then get 'unbranded' components, which I sure will happen with e-bikes?

 

Don't worry- its good to be challenged and kept on our toes Until numbers increase and we can negotiate further with supplier I don't think prices will be coming down. If you look at a Vectrix (Electric motorcycle), I used to work for them and their battery packs were in excess of £4000 for a NiMH....I agree with the leasing model and am doing a bit of research into it at the moment. I truly believe this is a good avenue to go.

 

Mark, thanks for taking my posts in a positive manner. Leasing I think could work and I look forward to seeing what you come up with....a trade in scheme may also would work but is a touch more difficult to cost as it easts into your margin and may only really work if you where trying to get a customer to switch from a competing product.....which is probably not the case here.

 

have just seen the Skoda Fabia 3 cylinder diesel, same kinda spec but 4 doors and a bit more practical I would think...

 

Had a Skoda Fabia 1.2 three cylinder petrol for five and a half years, one of the best cars I've ever owned and I've had some good stuff. Not a single fault in that time and everything original at time of sale down to the light bulbs. It fetched maximum trade in price and could have got more privately if I could have been bothered. Economy was pretty good if I didn't clobber it.

 

 

you get a £5000 rebate from government on an electric car...nothing for a bike, damn their stupidity!

 

Pro rata you'd get about £275 off your Wisper, but which would you rather pay, £1600 and forego the £275, or £28,990 and get £5000 off.

.

Edited November 13, 201015 yr by flecc

Batteries

 

Some interesting discussions on batteries in the posts above and as a newcomer to E biking, perhaps I could add a few points of my own . I have come to E bikes purely for pleasure riding and the price of batteries did not feature . It appears that older people purchase them for exercise and to take a lot of the effort out of cycling at their time of life . The younger ones use them for work as well as enjoying cycling ,as of course we all do . The Commuter , particularly in London will be saving on transport fares and after a few years will have saved more than enough to afford a new battery, even the high Ah ones costing a lot . The leisure rider will obviously put the battery cost down to the pleasure derived and perhaps the bonus of being fitter and maybe living longer .

After reading the posts on the forum , buying a machine say costing around £6-700 with a 8-10Ah battery would be the best move for the older person, as the distances to be covered would not be too great , the purchase price is reasonable and the cost of a replacement battery , not too high . I know this now, but when I purchased my Batribike Quartz Folder two months ago I wasn`t aware of this .

My son has just got back after a year working near Shanghai and said they all ride them on the twistgrip alone and use them as we ride motor scooters here . I could do the same but I don`t, as I didn`t buy it for that reason .Most of the people that stop and ask me about the machine are older and keen to buy one . The kids are very aware too . Perhaps the Marketing people ought to try other locations to promote E bikes not just Showgrounds where you have to pay to get in or be interested in Camping ,Caravanning, Boating etc.

Standardisation of batteries regarding capacities , size and connections is essential .I have given some thought lately to the time when my battery expires , will I manage to get an exact replacement ? If not I suppose the fact that it is rather low geared will be a bonus, as I will be able to pedal it everywhere without power . As it happens it is only a few kilos heavier than my steel constructed 31year old German Folder and at least the battery bike has suspension and 7 gears instead of 3 !

Hope the foregoing is of interest .

Interesting thoughts Roger, and coinciding with much that we've discussed and sometimes agreed in the past.

 

Battery standardisation is a hoary old chestnut that crops up repeatedly, but we are far away from it becoming reality for good reasons:

 

1) The battery technology is a long way from settled, some types bulkier for a given capacity.

 

2) The battery position cannot be agreed, since different bike types have differing needs, folders, sports, ladies step-through, motor position and weight distribution etc.

 

3) The battery capacity cannot be agreed for the reasons in (2) above; for the widely differing range requirements of customers; because actual power ratings and therefore consumptions vary widely. Just one company is about to have for their bike make the range 8 Ah, 10 Ah, 12 Ah, 18 Ah, supplemented from another source by a 16 Ah which has been 15 Ah previously.

 

4) Whether the battery should have an integral content meter varies by bike type, and bike price level.

 

5) Whether any such integral meter should have additional readout abilities and how many those should be varies according to bike price range.

.

Edited November 13, 201015 yr by flecc