Cyclone 500W, what battery in UK?

[MrT]

Hi all,

I'm new to this eBike stuff by simple virtue that I bought a tricycle for the wife second hand which, to my surprise appears to have a Cyclone 24V 500W motor installed, but no battery.

I've drawn the conclusion that it's a Cyclone motor having identified the ORO Grip accelerator appears to be just for Cyclone motors.

Now I have no idea about this stuff but am quite excited about it having read various posts on this forum, but I need your help.

So the steps that I envisage I need to take are as follows...

1) confirm that this is indeed a Cyclone motor and kit
2) source a suitable power supply. Now initially this needs to be relatively cheep as I have no idea if any of this works. It does however look in pretty good condition. I'm in the UK so not sure what I'm looking for, where best to source it and at the best price. I've gleaned thus far that there are a multitude of battery and charging options.
3) test the motor now that I have power
4) diagnose any issues and resolve
5) get out and make the most of having inadvertently bought a ready made eBike Tricycle

Really appreciate any help or advice anyone can offer.

Thanks in advance,

Rich

 

[Nealh]

The battery will depend on the controller amp rating, internal controller. The unknown is knowing the controller rating an email to Eclipse may shed more light on that.

http://eclipsebikes.com/index.php?cPath=

External controllers are often 50 -120a , internal likely to be 25 - 40a hence the need for a good high discharge battery.

Eclipse recommend one of their lifpo4 batteries, this is maybe because they typically have higher amp discharge rating then Li-on and they recommend the 15ah one.
Putting a cheap li-on oi it may well not be to impressive
unless it has a high discharge and that means pucker cells and not your cheapo or average rated cells.

 

[Nealh]

To see if the system works the easiest option is to wire two 12V car SLA's in series to see if the motor turns/works, if so then you can confidently but a proper battery.
The lifepo4 although about 20 -25% heavier then lion will have much better discharge rate unless you buy high discharge battery with 20/30a rated cells which is unlikely unless a bespoke one is made up. Lifepo4 will have a life of 2 or 3 times that of li-on battery.

 

[MrT]

Thanks for your advice. I'll certainly give them a call to see what they say.
Had a look at the LifePO4 batteries... c£300 a pop... Ouch! Is that what we're talking about for such a battery or are there other options?
A quick Google comes up with other options like...
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Bike-24v-15ah-LiFePO4-Batteries-6A-Charger-Scooters-Bicycle-Battery-BMS-/283091742701
Would something like that not be suitable then?

T. I. A.

 

[Nealh]

Likely hood is you will be charged 20%vat, a handling fee
/import duties.

Good/quality ebike stuff isn't cheap esp good batteries.

 

[MrT]

OK then... Had some success followed by a bug fail so need some help.

First of all, I managed to test the motor and it worked fine. I remembered I had a 24v drill so crudely use the battery wired the connections and gave it a go. Bit of a punt but the motor and accelerator worked perfectly. I was chuffed to bits.

So I thought right, I'll I vest in two 12v 10ah batteries from eBay. Didn't need to be super in any way, just provide reasonable performance.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/253195815797

Got them yesterday, put them together, made a simple jump, and thought 'sweet, ready to go' (see pic).

Went out to the garage, hooked it up and smoke came out of the motor. Disconnected ASAP. Tried my drill battery again... Dead.

I can only assume that in my ignorance I've not accounted for current and fried something.
I believe this motor has an internal controller.
I've had the motor off and can only open the innards so far. I can see two yellow wires, one of which has some slight charing, which appears to have occurred near one of the poles which also has some very minor charing.
I won't be able to look at anything more without disconnecting the wires (2 yellow, 3 white).

This is really outside my comfort zone. Any suggestions or links to posts / threads that can help me with idiots guide?

I'm gutted to have knackered a perfectly good motor and just hope I can fix it easily enough. Thank you in advance for any help.

Rich

 

[Nealh]

You probably didn't check polarity and connected in correctly smoking the controller.

Current shouldn't matter as controller will only draw the current it needs.
In correct voltage (to high) or wrong polarity will cause the magic smoke.

 

[MrT]

Ah, it's entirely possible that I connected it wrong, it was late at night.
So what options do I now have? Do I need to be thinking about a whole new controller or will it be an obvious component that I could replace?

Checked combined voltage and its about 25v.

Thanks again.

 

[wheeliepete]

I'm afraid to say your controller is prob. toast if you have connected the battery the wrong way round and I'm not sure they are available separately. You could try contacting cyclone and ask.

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/motor.html

You could run the motor with an external controller, but this would require opening up the motor and getting to the wiring. Depends on your skill level at this kind of task.

 

[MrT]

Ah... Bugger.
Well I've already had it opened as far as I could to look inside at the controller, magnets and poles. To open further would require detaching wires. But seeing as it sounds like the controller is toast I guess that doesn't matter much.

I assume there will be guides to building external controllers on here, but if you can recommend any by providing a link it would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

 

[Nealh]

Cyclones <500w have internal controllers, I'm guessing they are brushed but could be wrong you need to take a good clear pic or two of the controller/wiring connection. If they are brushless there is more choice of controllers to use.
Brushed controllers have 2 wires to motor and brushless has 3 for square wave signal or 3 + 8 for sine wave signal.

 

[wheeliepete]

I don't know these motors, so I cannot advise on removal of the controller, but you need to get to the wiring that comes from the motor itself to determine it's type. As nealh says, if only 2 , you have a brushed motor, if 3 or more, it's brushless. You will then know which controller to get.

 

[MrT]

Hi, defo brushless.... I'll take more useful picks in a bit later.
It has three white thick wires to the copper coils and two thin yellow wires.

 

[Nealh]

The three white are phase on most drives they tend to be green, blue and yellow so you need to find where they are connected and any reference/labelling on the board.
Two thin ones will be for sensors or a sensor of some kind.
How does the bike work throttle only or PAS, does it register speed or have an odo.

 

[MrT]

OK then... Having properly opened it up I think I can already anticipate the verdict judging from the scortch mark on the board.

Even so, I'll upload the pics for a positive affirmation of this diagnosis and welcome any suggestions on what to do next based on...
1. I'm a complete novice w.r.t all this and electronics
2. The motor was a bonus and not essential. If I can exploit it for minimal expense, great, if we're talking £100 or more to fix / replace then not worth it based on usage it'll get.

Having said all that, I'm always up for learning new stuff and having a challenge / puzzle to fix.

Welcome your thoughts.

 

[MrT]

The three white are phase on most drives they tend to be green, blue and yellow so you need to find where they are connected and any reference/labelling on the board.
Two thin ones will be for sensors or a sensor of some kind.
How does the bike work throttle only or PAS, does it register speed or have an odo.

Just a basic ORO throttle...
http://eclipsebikes.com/product_info.php?products_id=53

 

[Nealh]

Yes you made a mess of that .
Looks like a few resistors have blown.

A new controller is about 10-20 quid probably a square wave one just need to find out what the thin yellows do/go to.

 

[MrT]

According to this thread they are for a thermistor temperature sensor.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8621

The link above is useful but some of the narrative / terms are above my head. Hoping to find some idiots guide based on 'buy this, swap it here, jobs a good-un'.
But I might be over my head.

 

[wheeliepete]

There's some useful photos on that thread to help you see what needs to be done without needing to understand all the narrative. Because the hall sensors are mounted on the board, you will not be able to use their function with an external controller. You therefor need a sensorless controller that will work without them. 24v sensorless controllers are easily found, but they are not that powerful, only around 13 amps, compared to your blown controller which is about 25 amp. You may then consider stepping up to 36v which will give you more power. This photo shows how you need to extend the 3 motor wires that connect to the new controller.

The temp sensor wires can be cut as they will not be needed. This controller will work with your motor.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/24V-36V-250W-15A-Brushless-DC-Square-Wave-Controller-ebike-Electric-Bicycle-Hub-Motor-Controller-with/1314442_32650336445.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.1.296d31f2vpRhle

 

[Nealh]

ES is a great resource for techy stuff and motor knowhow.
I was going to post that the three phase wires are usually marked A,B or C . Then saw Wheelipete's post .
Any how
A = Blue
B = Green
C = Yellow.
B is the middle phase , and with the other two just a case of swapping over if motor direct is wrong.
The above pic #19 clearly shows the sequence.