C
Cyclezee
Guest
We decided to rationalise the brands we sell.
Falco kits are available in the UK from Team Hybrid http://www.teamhybridebikes.com/
Falco e-motors kickstarter project
- Thread starter Remco
- Start date
Falco kits are available in the UK from Team Hybrid http://www.teamhybridebikes.com/
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
Is that diplomatic speak for "We didn't manage to sell any"?
I think I mentioned in another post that I had a Falco Hx-250-FS 11.5BB for seven months.
Good points: Quiet, very quick on the flat.
Bad points: Poor climbing, faded badly on hills in Chilterns. Battery life was poor, lucky to manage 24 miles on flat towpaths, could just about get from Berkhamsted to Milton Keynes along the Grand Union, always had to take reserve battery, and that was on the lowest assist setting. The wireless console display was never operational, I had to have wired power control when kit was fitted, therefore there was no indication of speed/battery level/odometer/assist level.
To be fair Team Hybrid let me have the conversion at 2/3 of the price when the kit was installed, but there never seemed to be any hope of improvement in battery performance or the wireless communication.
Team Hybrid were also very professional when I let my disappointment be known, offering me a full refund immediately.
The Falco unit imo would be fine for short, fast, flat journeys, once they sort the wireless connectivity, but in the time I had it it was a premium price for an incomplete product that certainly did not meet my needs.
For the money there are far better options available, I wish I had paid more attention to advice on the forum before purchase.
Thankfully, I was able to put the refund towards my Redbridge KTM shopping spree !
Good points: Quiet, very quick on the flat.
Bad points: Poor climbing, faded badly on hills in Chilterns. Battery life was poor, lucky to manage 24 miles on flat towpaths, could just about get from Berkhamsted to Milton Keynes along the Grand Union, always had to take reserve battery, and that was on the lowest assist setting. The wireless console display was never operational, I had to have wired power control when kit was fitted, therefore there was no indication of speed/battery level/odometer/assist level.
To be fair Team Hybrid let me have the conversion at 2/3 of the price when the kit was installed, but there never seemed to be any hope of improvement in battery performance or the wireless communication.
Team Hybrid were also very professional when I let my disappointment be known, offering me a full refund immediately.
The Falco unit imo would be fine for short, fast, flat journeys, once they sort the wireless connectivity, but in the time I had it it was a premium price for an incomplete product that certainly did not meet my needs.
For the money there are far better options available, I wish I had paid more attention to advice on the forum before purchase.
Thankfully, I was able to put the refund towards my Redbridge KTM shopping spree !
C
Cyclezee
Guest
Good evening all.
Before I get started my name is Bob and I am the Operations Manager for Team Hybrid, the UK distributor for the Falco Motor system and there will be no mention of looms and fabric.
It's nice to see that the Falco system is still able to kick up some opinions.
The Kickstarter is, as Rakesh says, fairly strait forward in that it will raise awareness of the products and is also a good platform to launch new tech from. One of the things the kickstarter will allow Falco to do is make bigger batch runs which will allow better manufacturing practices and better quality. It is also a great way to see what the demand for the products are!
I know that Trex thinks it should be easy to have a heart rate throttle, but why is it that nobody else has done it yet? If it's such a strait forward thing show me one!? If you can do it I'm sure there is some money to be made with your ideas and would be worth you getting in contact.
As for Remco getting quick responses, I can only assume that nobody else here has tried talking directly with Falco!? If you had you would more than likely be talking directly with Rakesh. He does not shy away from people, why should he? If you have questions there is a contact page on his site and you will get answers. Remco is not getting special treatment on that score!
I'm not quite sure how to put this, but I'll give it a shot. I'm absolutely sure I'll be told if I'm wrong! ;-)
If you haven't had any contact or experience with the product or any of the Falco team including myself how can you judge how good the product is or what it is worth via Kickstarter!? Surely if you are a reputable poster on here or any other forum you would be going out of your way to come see us and try the product for yourself rather than relying on marketing "fluff". We are always happy to have people come down and try things out for themselves so they know what's what.
Obviously I'm aware of John's and berkobennie's experience with the products and it is a shame the product wasn't right for them. It is a shame that the only two people I'm aware of who have had any real world experience with Falco and who are posting on here have had bad experiences. But, hey, that's life and what we have to deal with.
So! Let me just put this out there so people are aware of a few facts about how we have the Falco system operating (in the UK) and what we have made better since the beginning of the year. We (Team Hybrid) have been very busy this year getting the system up to scratch for the UK and EU markets. Whereas Rakesh's aims lay with the United States and has very different aims and conditions for the end product.
Anyway I digress.
Following are the results of a Strava ride I did a few weeks ago using our EU/UK 250w motor to give you an idea of range per charge in highest assistance level. This is not a one-off achievement and using lower power levels you could get much better power consumption beating pretty much any other motor system. If you don't believe me come on down and have a go! Seriously!
250w test ride in "Road Legal" setting with maximum assistance all the way.
Averaging 8.9wh/mile giving a total max range per charge of 47 miles riding flat out with an 11.5ah battery.
All this on a pretty much bog standard Genesis Core 120 with 26" wheels and knobly tyres!
Also included on the route is 1 mile of off-road cycle trail on a 5.1mile route.
Mild 158ft altitude gain.
17.62mph average speed.
We have been working very hard to make this system the best it can be.
Our highest speed record when running a 250w motor is over 35mph! (@36v)
Our highest speed record when running a 500w motor was 48mph! (@48v)
(if I'd had bigger gearing and no wind it would have been higher)
I think part of the problem regarding selling the system in general terms is that there is a huge selection of other systems that have already established themselves in the market place. We have yet to find a niche as we are able to deliver much higher speeds than any other motor at standard voltages. But when looking at the legal market the competition for legal kits and bikes is very saturated. We have also had to do a lot of development "on the fly" which is why some of our early customers have not had the best that the motor can offer although we have offered people the option to get the latest updates as they're released to us.
Baring in mind Team Hybrid is still able to beat even Rakesh's best estimates of performance there is still a lot more potential in these motors than you would be able to get out of any other system. So much so that we were able to supply pacing bikes for a Keirin race at the London Velodrome in August. "Your bikes are the only ones in the country that can do this for us" from the organiser of the event! The bikes were required to be able to reach 55kph when on track and were rarely required to use full power!
I hope this gives a bigger picture of what is possible!?
Before I get started my name is Bob and I am the Operations Manager for Team Hybrid, the UK distributor for the Falco Motor system and there will be no mention of looms and fabric.
It's nice to see that the Falco system is still able to kick up some opinions.
The Kickstarter is, as Rakesh says, fairly strait forward in that it will raise awareness of the products and is also a good platform to launch new tech from. One of the things the kickstarter will allow Falco to do is make bigger batch runs which will allow better manufacturing practices and better quality. It is also a great way to see what the demand for the products are!
I know that Trex thinks it should be easy to have a heart rate throttle, but why is it that nobody else has done it yet? If it's such a strait forward thing show me one!? If you can do it I'm sure there is some money to be made with your ideas and would be worth you getting in contact.
As for Remco getting quick responses, I can only assume that nobody else here has tried talking directly with Falco!? If you had you would more than likely be talking directly with Rakesh. He does not shy away from people, why should he? If you have questions there is a contact page on his site and you will get answers. Remco is not getting special treatment on that score!
I'm not quite sure how to put this, but I'll give it a shot. I'm absolutely sure I'll be told if I'm wrong! ;-)
If you haven't had any contact or experience with the product or any of the Falco team including myself how can you judge how good the product is or what it is worth via Kickstarter!? Surely if you are a reputable poster on here or any other forum you would be going out of your way to come see us and try the product for yourself rather than relying on marketing "fluff". We are always happy to have people come down and try things out for themselves so they know what's what.
Obviously I'm aware of John's and berkobennie's experience with the products and it is a shame the product wasn't right for them. It is a shame that the only two people I'm aware of who have had any real world experience with Falco and who are posting on here have had bad experiences. But, hey, that's life and what we have to deal with.
So! Let me just put this out there so people are aware of a few facts about how we have the Falco system operating (in the UK) and what we have made better since the beginning of the year. We (Team Hybrid) have been very busy this year getting the system up to scratch for the UK and EU markets. Whereas Rakesh's aims lay with the United States and has very different aims and conditions for the end product.
Anyway I digress.
- The wireless stability has been sorted and is no longer an issue (as raised by berkobennie).
- We have a beautiful controller program that will allow you seamless Torque Sensor controlling of the motor.
- You have a choice of three motor control devices: TH (Throttle), CS (Crank sensor/pedelec sensor) and TS (Torque Sensor). They can be used all together, separately or in a combination of any two!
- Using an end user computer interface and wireless USB stick you can change the TS parameters of your motor so that it works perfectly for either your weight or strength or whatever other requirements you have. along with other functional information.
- If you choose not to use the Wireless Console we can set up a motor so that you have the best of all assistance levels without a console. (optional to have a CA to monitor speed, power, battery consumption etc.)
- Depending on the set-up you want to have you can have automatic regen function that doesn't require having to select a regen specific setting.
Following are the results of a Strava ride I did a few weeks ago using our EU/UK 250w motor to give you an idea of range per charge in highest assistance level. This is not a one-off achievement and using lower power levels you could get much better power consumption beating pretty much any other motor system. If you don't believe me come on down and have a go! Seriously!
250w test ride in "Road Legal" setting with maximum assistance all the way.
Averaging 8.9wh/mile giving a total max range per charge of 47 miles riding flat out with an 11.5ah battery.
All this on a pretty much bog standard Genesis Core 120 with 26" wheels and knobly tyres!
Also included on the route is 1 mile of off-road cycle trail on a 5.1mile route.
Mild 158ft altitude gain.
17.62mph average speed.
We have been working very hard to make this system the best it can be.
Our highest speed record when running a 250w motor is over 35mph! (@36v)
Our highest speed record when running a 500w motor was 48mph! (@48v)
(if I'd had bigger gearing and no wind it would have been higher)
I think part of the problem regarding selling the system in general terms is that there is a huge selection of other systems that have already established themselves in the market place. We have yet to find a niche as we are able to deliver much higher speeds than any other motor at standard voltages. But when looking at the legal market the competition for legal kits and bikes is very saturated. We have also had to do a lot of development "on the fly" which is why some of our early customers have not had the best that the motor can offer although we have offered people the option to get the latest updates as they're released to us.
Baring in mind Team Hybrid is still able to beat even Rakesh's best estimates of performance there is still a lot more potential in these motors than you would be able to get out of any other system. So much so that we were able to supply pacing bikes for a Keirin race at the London Velodrome in August. "Your bikes are the only ones in the country that can do this for us" from the organiser of the event! The bikes were required to be able to reach 55kph when on track and were rarely required to use full power!
I hope this gives a bigger picture of what is possible!?
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
Of course you're going to be told you're wrong when you say daft things like that. You have totally underestimated the knowledge and experience of people on this forum. Many of us have tried your motor system and I personally feel insulted by what you posted. Why did you have to say that? It's not in any way helping to promote your product.
Just when it's starting to look sensible with clear technical information, you have to spoil it by spouting crap again.That's just more sales fluff. Do you really think that we're so stupid as to believe that your bikes are the only ones in the country that can do 55 km/h. For me, it just means that we can't trust anything you say.
Please, please just stick to the technical stuff and simple facts. I'd love to see your product do well, and I'd love to be able to recommend it.
The project is getting some momentum again, but it needs more backers to succeed. I'm glad there still are a lot of people who see the bright side of things and back it up. And this is fully justified because looking at the specs the package Falco offers is unique.
Thx Bob for clarifying that the childhood deseases from the past have been sorted out. I'm quite impressed with the range and speed. Maybe other sets can do this as well... but it sounds dull, I say it again, the whole package is impressive:
5 phase gearless motor with regeneration, no separate controller needed, no cable clutter, android or iPhone control app, wireless support, heartrate meter integration, up to 10 speed freewheel OR cassette support, pc-programmable controller, selectable offroadmode on the move and great design!
Even the most stubborn forummember here has to admit that this is looking very promising and till now, I have not seen anybody else offering this in an integrated oem package, except for Falco.
Thx Bob for clarifying that the childhood deseases from the past have been sorted out. I'm quite impressed with the range and speed. Maybe other sets can do this as well... but it sounds dull, I say it again, the whole package is impressive:
5 phase gearless motor with regeneration, no separate controller needed, no cable clutter, android or iPhone control app, wireless support, heartrate meter integration, up to 10 speed freewheel OR cassette support, pc-programmable controller, selectable offroadmode on the move and great design!
Even the most stubborn forummember here has to admit that this is looking very promising and till now, I have not seen anybody else offering this in an integrated oem package, except for Falco.
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So do we get a factual description of the kit and why it is so special?
So far it is a legal motor with good but not top rate watt per mile range.
Why not buy the whoosh kit?
For the record my highest speed with 250 watt Panasonic was around 45 mph on a run that used circa 7 watts per mile.
At zero watts electric I have regular +15mph runs with peaks over 45mph.
Strava claims I got 60 mph but I only claim 50 club membership.
So far it is a legal motor with good but not top rate watt per mile range.
Why not buy the whoosh kit?
For the record my highest speed with 250 watt Panasonic was around 45 mph on a run that used circa 7 watts per mile.
At zero watts electric I have regular +15mph runs with peaks over 45mph.
Strava claims I got 60 mph but I only claim 50 club membership.
Numbers, numbers numbers, are important but... I'm not looking for a record bike, 250 nominal watt and driving 45 miles per hour? I wonder how long the motor will last...
40 a 45m/u on a normal bike is the max for save cycling. I think it is even to fast for most people, so the whole number thing and 1 watt more or less has less significance then the unique options I already pointed out which other kits lack.
You can look at the project-page link at the openingpost, here it is again, there you can find the specs and benefits of the kit.
http://goo.gl/AneLht
Greetings.
40 a 45m/u on a normal bike is the max for save cycling. I think it is even to fast for most people, so the whole number thing and 1 watt more or less has less significance then the unique options I already pointed out which other kits lack.
You can look at the project-page link at the openingpost, here it is again, there you can find the specs and benefits of the kit.
http://goo.gl/AneLht
Greetings.
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C
Cyclezee
Guest
OK, maybe it is time that I nailed my colours to the mast.
I have tried several DD systems over the years, BionX, Falco, Heinzmann and Ansmann.
If it is absolute minimim cabling, components and wireless communication that you want then the Go SwissDrive as fitted to some Ansmann models and also available in retro fit kit form is hard to beat. Ansmann link http://www.ansmann.de/en/e-bikes/e-bike/pedelecs/rear-wheel-drive/ Go SwissDrive link http://www.go-swissdrive.com/das-go-swissdrive-system/
If seeing a few wires is not a problem I believe the latest Heinzmann DirectPower system is the best direct drive system available.
Heinzmann link http://www.ebike.heinzmann.com/en/systems/directpower/motor
Of course my opinion is totally and unashamedly biased as these are systems that we supply.
I have tried several DD systems over the years, BionX, Falco, Heinzmann and Ansmann.
If it is absolute minimim cabling, components and wireless communication that you want then the Go SwissDrive as fitted to some Ansmann models and also available in retro fit kit form is hard to beat. Ansmann link http://www.ansmann.de/en/e-bikes/e-bike/pedelecs/rear-wheel-drive/ Go SwissDrive link http://www.go-swissdrive.com/das-go-swissdrive-system/
If seeing a few wires is not a problem I believe the latest Heinzmann DirectPower system is the best direct drive system available.
Heinzmann link http://www.ebike.heinzmann.com/en/systems/directpower/motor
Of course my opinion is totally and unashamedly biased as these are systems that we supply.
I can't see this project is going to fly. You are more than half way through the fundraising and you've raised only 28.5% of the target.
Your kit is not even street legal in Europe, and you need to beat the Kalhoff Impulse Ergo NuVinci on specifications.
Your kit is not even street legal in Europe, and you need to beat the Kalhoff Impulse Ergo NuVinci on specifications.
C
Cyclezee
Guest
Hi Remco,
The Ansmann Type C kit is not cheap, but Swiss quality costs €2132 or £1699 to be precise.
However I think that you will find that the cheapest Falco kit retails in the UK for €1700 or £1355, according to my maths that is not half the Ansmann kit.
My pricing reference is the pricing listed in the kickstarterproject:
$495 - $1095 for the Falco kits.
An ideal chance for people to get a high end system comparable with over 2000 euros range systems , but far cheaper.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
You'll be charged when the project meets its funding target. There's no guarantee that you'll actually receive anything.
Is the contract with Rakesh or a company?
C
Cyclezee
Guest
Hi Remco,
I take that you are based in the US? Please correct me if I am wrong.
If that is the case the prices you quote bear no relationship to the current retail prices in the UK and don't include import duty, VAT and shipping.
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Look guys, I normally avoid forums like the plague. Partly to avoid the politics and partly because I don't have the right level of tact for it. Remco brought this thread to my attention and after seeing where the conversation was going I thought I'd throw in my two pence worth and try to clear up some details. Just to be clear I have not directly or indirectly called or alluded to anyone being an idiot, nor am I writing standard copy and paste fluff either, but it seems fine for others on here to slur my remarks without rebuke! How can I take anything they say to be unbiased, truthful or reliable!? Are we still in a school playground trying to spit the furthest or the locker room for that matter to see who has the biggest salami?
Anyway.......to my defence!
The Kickstarter, although obviously international due to the internet, will have a slight US slant to it in regard to any speeds quoted although I see none specifically mentioned on the Kickstarter page. Bottom line is you can have a legal set-up if you wish, US or EU, or, you can fill your boots doing whatever speeds you want. We give you the choice as an end user. Obviously for OEM's they would naturally have to adhere to whatever environment they were selling into and the system can be tailored to do whatever they want it to do.
Being perfectly frank with you all, in my experience there are a lot of so called experts or knowledgeable people who come into my workshop on a daily basis and say that there is a better/cheaper/faster/stronger, whatever, way of doing something in my industry. These people will have genuine life experience and qualifications but will screw up a job that would take me five minutes to do and they are never able to get better performance than what I can do with their equipment. Basically I don't know most of you and have no idea what any of you do professionally or personally and other than the two guys I do know here, who've had kits, I'm not seeing much that tells me anyone else has actually been in the same postcode as one of our systems. Yet slating it as if they've laid down £1000s themselves and the system not living up to the hype!
The reason I assumed that d8veh has not ridden the system is because, after reading the thread three times in it's entirety, I saw no comments that directly stated he had. Therefore I would naturally assume he would have been using information from third parties or hearsay. Not an actual account of experience. Although I threw out a loaded barb, perhaps, I needed to know if folk had actually ridden the product! Not so daft after all as I got an answer. Although I believe the response was
If he has in fact ridden the system, certainly not at Team Hybrid anyway otherwise he would have more information available to him than the knowledge shown on here, it would be worth saying so so we all know where his observations have come from. Even if he had not liked the system there should have been some sort of explanation that would have made it clear to me that he had ridden it and would have made this whole essay unnecessary in the first place!
The London Keirin "crap spouting"! Thank you very much!
The statement I made about us being the only people who were able to supply them the right equipment was not me trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, they were words spoken to me directly from the person who set up the event. The organiser was unable to find anyone else from a commercial standpoint or individual with feet big enough to fit the boot! I'm more than aware of companies and individuals who can produce fast bikes - Stealth and M55 as examples - but nobody wanted to know or could provide what they needed! No Bull. Give the organisers a ring! What the hell would I gain for lying?
There may also be some confusion about the wh/mile figures I gave. They were stated, and are correct, when running in MAXIMUM assistance and on a variety of terrains and inclines on the one route and on an inefficient bike. These were not taken during "optimal conditions" on purpose. I'm perfectly aware that you can get lower than that from other systems I wasn't trying particularly hard to get a low figure. I can get you much lower than that if you use power level 1, and regen going down hills, on our system! Your range and wh/mile would be much better.
As for the batteries, all I can say is that the figures are not consistent throughout the Kickstarter page and, well, sorry you're right, the math doesn't add up. There is clearly a typo or someone has not filled in the page correctly. However, if you don't want to trust in the batteries that we are able to supply, you can use your own as we are not restricting you to ours alone unlike a Heinzmann pack for example amongst many other companies that lock you into one format.
Everything I have written about on my first post, and here now, is actual real life experience that I have had with the product. I'm not a salesman trying to convince you all to go out and spend your hard earned on a Kickstarter product or this system in general if it's not right for you! Go and ride whatever makes you happy I'm/we're really not that fussed. If everyone used exactly the same stuff as everyone else what a crap-hole world that would be!?
Anyway.......to my defence!
The Kickstarter, although obviously international due to the internet, will have a slight US slant to it in regard to any speeds quoted although I see none specifically mentioned on the Kickstarter page. Bottom line is you can have a legal set-up if you wish, US or EU, or, you can fill your boots doing whatever speeds you want. We give you the choice as an end user. Obviously for OEM's they would naturally have to adhere to whatever environment they were selling into and the system can be tailored to do whatever they want it to do.
Being perfectly frank with you all, in my experience there are a lot of so called experts or knowledgeable people who come into my workshop on a daily basis and say that there is a better/cheaper/faster/stronger, whatever, way of doing something in my industry. These people will have genuine life experience and qualifications but will screw up a job that would take me five minutes to do and they are never able to get better performance than what I can do with their equipment. Basically I don't know most of you and have no idea what any of you do professionally or personally and other than the two guys I do know here, who've had kits, I'm not seeing much that tells me anyone else has actually been in the same postcode as one of our systems. Yet slating it as if they've laid down £1000s themselves and the system not living up to the hype!
The reason I assumed that d8veh has not ridden the system is because, after reading the thread three times in it's entirety, I saw no comments that directly stated he had. Therefore I would naturally assume he would have been using information from third parties or hearsay. Not an actual account of experience. Although I threw out a loaded barb, perhaps, I needed to know if folk had actually ridden the product! Not so daft after all as I got an answer. Although I believe the response was
that still doesn't directly say that he has personally ridden the kit!? An neither is there any mention of what he thought of the kit he rode!? How old it was or in what set-up! What was it I said that was insulting? I think it is insulting to me personally and unfair to anyone else reading this thread that they are taking him at his word when he may not have even ridden the system that he is being so vocal about or spoken to anyone directly involved with the product. And if he has not seen us in person he is very much in the dark about the most up-to-date version of the kit, currently available, let alone how it would feel and function from a Kickstarter kit. I'm afraid to say reading about this kit is very far removed from actually riding it as the websites are not 100% up-to-date themselves. As I mentioned in my first post the only two people I absolutely, 100%, know have ridden the kit are cyclezee and berkobennie and they have said their piece very fairly without name calling and have given an accurate account of their situations.
If he has in fact ridden the system, certainly not at Team Hybrid anyway otherwise he would have more information available to him than the knowledge shown on here, it would be worth saying so so we all know where his observations have come from. Even if he had not liked the system there should have been some sort of explanation that would have made it clear to me that he had ridden it and would have made this whole essay unnecessary in the first place!
The London Keirin "crap spouting"! Thank you very much!
The statement I made about us being the only people who were able to supply them the right equipment was not me trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, they were words spoken to me directly from the person who set up the event. The organiser was unable to find anyone else from a commercial standpoint or individual with feet big enough to fit the boot! I'm more than aware of companies and individuals who can produce fast bikes - Stealth and M55 as examples - but nobody wanted to know or could provide what they needed! No Bull. Give the organisers a ring! What the hell would I gain for lying?
There may also be some confusion about the wh/mile figures I gave. They were stated, and are correct, when running in MAXIMUM assistance and on a variety of terrains and inclines on the one route and on an inefficient bike. These were not taken during "optimal conditions" on purpose. I'm perfectly aware that you can get lower than that from other systems I wasn't trying particularly hard to get a low figure. I can get you much lower than that if you use power level 1, and regen going down hills, on our system! Your range and wh/mile would be much better.
As for the batteries, all I can say is that the figures are not consistent throughout the Kickstarter page and, well, sorry you're right, the math doesn't add up. There is clearly a typo or someone has not filled in the page correctly. However, if you don't want to trust in the batteries that we are able to supply, you can use your own as we are not restricting you to ours alone unlike a Heinzmann pack for example amongst many other companies that lock you into one format.
Everything I have written about on my first post, and here now, is actual real life experience that I have had with the product. I'm not a salesman trying to convince you all to go out and spend your hard earned on a Kickstarter product or this system in general if it's not right for you! Go and ride whatever makes you happy I'm/we're really not that fussed. If everyone used exactly the same stuff as everyone else what a crap-hole world that would be!?
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