Kona Ute tsdz2 conversion

[matthewslack]

Tiny cosmetics.. panniers didn't respond to attempts to revive them so they'll have to soldier on as is. Yepp seat mount got a going over with paint stripper, wire brush and eventually sanding with a dremel to get rid of rust, then repainted in copper rattle can to at least superficially match the bike. Need to repeat the process on the seat base itself but no rush



Range test ride today - sans child.

Starting off with a almost fully charged battery I went from Bristol to Bath in 'Speed' setting, which saw me arriving in Bath just as the first battery bar blinked out - which is good because I thought it was stuck on full!

Seeing as we'd covered .. 23 or so miles with seemingly very little impact after a bit of a potter round Bath, I turned it up to turbo for the ride back, which promptly set about absolutely rinsing the battery. I know lithium ion batteries tend to drop off rapidly after getting below say 80% but wow by the time I got to the outskirts of Bristol it was between half + a third battery so I turned it down to 'Speed', but even then by the time I'd gotten through the city centre and needing to do the remaining couple of miles to the house it was down to about 25%. Out come the 'Tour' mode, less a short burst of turbo for a hill at the end, and arrived home with the battery alternating between 1 and 2 bars - guess that's about 10-15%.

Very happy with that range - 45 miles including about 10 miles of turbo, in temperatures around 2 degrees celsius. Sensible usage in these temps should see an easy 50, and warmer weather I would expect to see more again - perhaps 60-65.

The odds of me going on any 60 mile rides with a baby on the back? slim to none but hey ho it's good to have it.

Tiny cosmetics.. panniers didn't respond to attempts to revive them so they'll have to soldier on as is. Yepp seat mount got a going over with paint stripper, wire brush and eventually sanding with a dremel to get rid of rust, then repainted in copper rattle can to at least superficially match the bike. Need to repeat the process on the seat base itself but no rush



Range test ride today - sans child.

Starting off with a almost fully charged battery I went from Bristol to Bath in 'Speed' setting, which saw me arriving in Bath just as the first battery bar blinked out - which is good because I thought it was stuck on full!

Seeing as we'd covered .. 23 or so miles with seemingly very little impact after a bit of a potter round Bath, I turned it up to turbo for the ride back, which promptly set about absolutely rinsing the battery. I know lithium ion batteries tend to drop off rapidly after getting below say 80% but wow by the time I got to the outskirts of Bristol it was between half + a third battery so I turned it down to 'Speed', but even then by the time I'd gotten through the city centre and needing to do the remaining couple of miles to the house it was down to about 25%. Out come the 'Tour' mode, less a short burst of turbo for a hill at the end, and arrived home with the battery alternating between 1 and 2 bars - guess that's about 10-15%.

Very happy with that range - 45 miles including about 10 miles of turbo, in temperatures around 2 degrees celsius. Sensible usage in these temps should see an easy 50, and warmer weather I would expect to see more again - perhaps 60-65.

The odds of me going on any 60 mile rides with a baby on the back? slim to none but hey ho it's good to have it.

How many Wh is your battery? Looks a good size in an earlier pic.

 

[Nealh]

I worried about my bbs01b overheating in summer, but it seems fine, even with much hill climbing carrying heavy weight - judging by forum comments, the Tongsheng blue gear seems to have a habit of melting?!??

The Blue gear from what I read is not worth changing as it may act as the fail safe on this motor from other untold damage should a fail occur. Not only does high torque from standing start cause the gear damage but possibly excess heat to the worm drive gear shaft may permeate to the gear as well, another reason to have real world temp reading of what is actually occurring inside.

 

[potato]

The battery is a 12.5ah unit, you can get 15ah and 17.5ah ones in the same body ie same physical size, and to the person that asked, yes I did indeed leave out the uni + racecourse - in summer I might extend out to the dundas aquaduct but that'll be it I think!

I'm gradually becoming more perplexed trying to figure out battery requirements... the mother in law wants me to convert her old hybrid after having had a go on the ute - fair enough.. trouble is it looks like this



The Ute was a tight fit on the battery but if you undo a cable clip you can get the battery in and out - this one, no chance getting a similar sized battery in unless it was mounted atop the top tube, and the rider is .. not as young as she once was, and will need all the stepover clearance she can get.

I'll start a proper thread for it if its a goer, but is it even possible to take a 500/750w tsdz2 and run it off a bottle cage battery, one of those 7ah jobs?

I had it in my head more ah = more range, and the power output remained the same, but doing some reading tonight suggested that volts and amps both contribute to both range and power - the article I saw went something like 48V + 14Ah battery and a 750w motor meant the sum was 48 * 14 = 672 and that's your wattage output. Thus with a 48v 7ah battery and a 750w motor I'd only be looking at 336w?

Sorry these are probably very first timer questions

 

[Woosh]

but is it even possible to take a 500/750w tsdz2 and run it off a bottle cage battery, one of those 7ah jobs?

you can but you shouldn't.
The controller on the TSDZ2 is rated 10A continuous, about 17A max.
That means that on a long hill, it can take as much as 17A, not only that will cause a large voltage sag on a small capacity battery (just google Peukert effect), more importantly, it produces heat inside that battery. E-bike batteries are not designed to dissipate a lot of heat, so the result is it will shorten the life of your battery or even damage it.
If you build your own battery then you can select the right cells to eliminate this voltage sag. Before you buy a small capacity battery, you should ask your supplier which cells are used in that battery and google their characteristics or ask the forum.
I usually use a 12AH or more with the TSDZ2.

 

[Benjahmin]

I had it in my head more ah = more range, and the power output remained the same, but doing some reading tonight suggested that volts and amps both contribute to both range and power - the article I saw went something like 48V + 14Ah battery and a 750w motor meant the sum was 48 * 14 = 672 and that's your wattage output. Thus with a 48v 7ah battery and a 750w motor I'd only be looking at 336w?

What this calculation gives you is the Watt Hours capacity of the battery, NOT the wattage.
So a 36v 10Ah battery is 360Wh, whilst a 48v10Ah battery is 480Wh. More fuel in the tank but not necesarily a greater ability to deliver it.
For your Mother in laws bike I'd suggest front hub and rack battery. Weight distribution is fair. Hub unlikely to suffer from any overheat. A less 'technical' ride in terms of gear changing and less fault prone.

 

[matthewslack]

The battery is a 12.5ah unit, you can get 15ah and 17.5ah ones in the same body ie same physical size, and to the person that asked, yes I did indeed leave out the uni + racecourse - in summer I might extend out to the dundas aquaduct but that'll be it I think!

I'm gradually becoming more perplexed trying to figure out battery requirements... the mother in law wants me to convert her old hybrid after having had a go on the ute - fair enough.. trouble is it looks like this



The Ute was a tight fit on the battery but if you undo a cable clip you can get the battery in and out - this one, no chance getting a similar sized battery in unless it was mounted atop the top tube, and the rider is .. not as young as she once was, and will need all the stepover clearance she can get.

I'll start a proper thread for it if its a goer, but is it even possible to take a 500/750w tsdz2 and run it off a bottle cage battery, one of those 7ah jobs?

I had it in my head more ah = more range, and the power output remained the same, but doing some reading tonight suggested that volts and amps both contribute to both range and power - the article I saw went something like 48V + 14Ah battery and a 750w motor meant the sum was 48 * 14 = 672 and that's your wattage output. Thus with a 48v 7ah battery and a 750w motor I'd only be looking at 336w?

Sorry these are probably very first timer questions

That seems physically large for its capacity. I saw 'taller than it is wide' and thought it might be 20Ah!

But 12.5Ah makes the range look good. Given the amount of higher levels you used, it looks like about 85% of about 600Wh for 45 miles, so 11.3Wh per mile, which is perfectly respectable. I use almost exclusively eco mode on long trips and get 10Wh per mile on average.

As you learn more about batteries you will come across a term called C. This is a measure of discharge or charge rate, expressed as a multiple of the Ah of the battery pack.

So a 1C rate for your battery is 12.5 amps. Anything below 0.5C is gentle. Most of your use is ideally in this range. Up to 1C is normal for the peak demands, but regular need for more than 1C should be avoided unless the battery has been specifically built and chosen for high power.

So a 7Ah battery ideally does not get asked to supply more than 7 amps, which at 48V is about 350W.

Some controllers can be configured to limit maximum current. So that would be a way of protecting a smaller than ideal battery.

I have all this to come - just received my 48V TSDZ2, waiting for the battery.

 

[guerney]

That seems physically large for its capacity. I saw 'taller than it is wide' and thought it might be 20Ah!

But 12.5Ah makes the range look good. Given the amount of higher levels you used, it looks like about 85% of about 600Wh for 45 miles, so 11.3Wh per mile, which is perfectly respectable. I use almost exclusively eco mode on long trips and get 10Wh per mile on average.

As you learn more about batteries you will come across a term called C. This is a measure of discharge or charge rate, expressed as a multiple of the Ah of the battery pack.

So a 1C rate for your battery is 12.5 amps. Anything below 0.5C is gentle. Most of your use is ideally in this range. Up to 1C is normal for the peak demands, but regular need for more than 1C should be avoided unless the battery has been specifically built and chosen for high power.

So a 7Ah battery ideally does not get asked to supply more than 7 amps, which at 48V is about 350W.

Some controllers can be configured to limit maximum current. So that would be a way of protecting a smaller than ideal battery.

I have all this to come - just received my 48V TSDZ2, waiting for the battery.

Are you going to do the temperature mods? I'd like to know how hot the motor (and blue gear) gets under heavy load, when propelling the bike up long steep hills, before I buy one.

 

[Woosh]

Are you going to do the temperature mods? I'd like to know how hot the motor (and blue gear) gets under heavy load, when propelling the bike up long steep hills, before I buy one.

the problem is less often an issue of melting plastic, although that happens, but mainly that some needles inside the one way bearing (the blue gear is a one way bearing) get damaged, so it works only a very low torque, as soon as you push the motor a bit harder, it slips.

 

[guerney]

the problem is less often an issue of melting plastic, although that happens, but mainly that some needles inside the one way bearing (the blue gear is a one way bearing) get damaged, so it works only a very low torque, as soon as you push the motor a bit harder, it slips.

Thanks. That's certainly food for thought... many hills here, many pumpkins to shift in October.

 

[matthewslack]

the problem is less often an issue of melting plastic, although that happens, but mainly that some needles inside the one way bearing (the blue gear is a one way bearing) get damaged, so it works only a very low torque, as soon as you push the motor a bit harder, it slips.

Good to know. Is there any consensus on what causes that? Is it a general across the board issue, or mainly higher power users?

 

[matthewslack]

Are you going to do the temperature mods? I'd like to know how hot the motor (and blue gear) gets under heavy load, when propelling the bike up long steep hills, before I buy one.

I shall get the materials in stock so that the first time I open the casing, I can do those jobs. I've a bike to refurb before it is ready for the kit, so it won't be tomorrow!

 

[Woosh]

Good to know. Is there any consensus on what causes that? Is it a general across the board issue, or mainly higher power users?

the 48V TSDZ2 is more powerful, smaller and lighter than the BBS01B but its rotor spins at twice as fast. The adverse effect of the higher rotor speed is the primary clutch is smaller although it works twice as hard.
I love the TSDZ2 because it does mostly what a Bosch CX does at a fraction of the cost. The BBS01 for all its quality still does not deliver the same ride feel. I wouldn't use the TSDZ2 for cargo bikes. A large rear geared hub is better for that.

 

[matthewslack]

the 48V TSDZ2 is more powerful, smaller and lighter than the BBS01B but its rotor spins at twice as fast. The adverse effect of the higher rotor speed is the primary clutch is smaller although it works twice as hard.
I love the TSDZ2 because it does mostly what a Bosch CX does at a fraction of the cost. The BBS01 for all its quality still does not deliver the same ride feel. I wouldn't use the TSDZ2 for cargo bikes. A large rear geared hub is better for that.

I've probably been a bit spoilt having a brand new low end but latest generation Shimano equipped loan bike, and I'm looking to achieve something like the same riding experience on my own old bike at a fraction of the cost and with freedom to fiddle, and add solar charging without risking expensive accidents with proprietary batteries.

Eventually I will likely go the OSF route, and have a close look at the algorithms it uses. The one 'fault' with my e5000 is the fixed amplification of my effort in each level. I want it to raise and lower that ratio more intelligently, which is probably what the expensive end of both bosch and Shimano ranges do for you. But the coding might be a bridge too far. We'll see!

But it is likely to be a slow burning project for now.

 

[Woosh]

Eventually I will likely go the OSF route, and have a close look at the algorithms it uses. The one 'fault' with my e5000 is the fixed amplification of my effort in each level. I want it to raise and lower that ratio more intelligently, which is probably what the expensive end of both bosch and Shimano ranges do for you. But the coding might be a bridge too far. We'll see!

you can personalise a lot with the standard program that Tongsheng loaded into your controller, it requires only some light reading of the manual.
You can use my version here:

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/manuals/TSDZ2.pdf

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/manuals/VLCD5.pdf

things like how to set walk mode for testing the kit, how to change assist ratios etc.
We can't support nor supply spares to those who did not buy the kit from us but I can always informally answer questions on the forum.

 

[guerney]

the 48V TSDZ2 is more powerful, smaller and lighter than the BBS01B but its rotor spins at twice as fast. The adverse effect of the higher rotor speed is the primary clutch is smaller although it works twice as hard.
I love the TSDZ2 because it does mostly what a Bosch CX does at a fraction of the cost. The BBS01 for all its quality still does not deliver the same ride feel. I wouldn't use the TSDZ2 for cargo bikes. A large rear geared hub is better for that.

I hope that someday someone will figure out how to add a torque sensor to a BBSXX(X), hack the Bafang protocol and display to suit.

 

[Nealh]

I hope that someday someone will figure out how to add a torque sensor to a BBSXX(X), hack the Bafang protocol and display to suit.

Only if a TS axle can be retrofitted which I doubt. I t will need a complete rework of the engineering.

 

[guerney]

Only if a TS axle can be retrofitted which I doubt. I t will need a complete rework of the engineering.

A new axle which works like the TS, connected to a raspberry pi which rewrites the wheel size setting in the controller firmware continuously to suit varying levels of torque? It's unlikely to work lol. Bafang seem to bemoving on and uninterested in developing the bbs series. The cadence sensored bike does take a little getting used to, but IMHO it's bearable.

 

[matthewslack]

A new axle which works like the TS, connected to a raspberry pi which rewrites the wheel size setting in the controller firmware continuously to suit varying levels of torque? It's unlikely to work lol. Bafang seem to bemoving on and uninterested in developing the bbs series. The cadence sensored bike does take a little getting used to, but IMHO it's bearable.

Or take the opposite approach to measurement: instead of measuring the rider's input directly and adding to it, measure the total torque from e.g chain tension, and subtract known motor torque to infer rider input.

 

[Nealh]

Stancoke on ES also a pedelec.de member made and programmed his own TS BB.

 

[guerney]

Stancoke on ES also a pedelec.de member made and programmed his own TS BB.

That sounds very interesting, and impressive! I can't find the ES thread through Googling. There's a "Stanecoke" on ES?