New Legal Speed Limit: What should it be?

[flecc]

You are mixing up guidelines with the law.

No I'm not. I'm repeating a statement given by the DfT in response to that query.

It doesn't change the law, but it does mean that if the police measure up to17 mph assisted a prosecution will not follow, hence my entirely valid above posted advice.

Nor is a statement by the DfT necessarily only a guideline. For example from 13th April 2013 to 6th April 2015 a statement by the DfT that pedelecs up to 250 watts rating would not be prosecuted was complied with by all police forces, despite the law stating 200 watts was the limit during that period.

Another example is a statement by onetime Home Secretary Paul Boateng that cyclists who ride on the pavement responsibly out of fear of traffic must not be prosecuted, despite it being illegal. All police forces complied and it was later confirmed that this statement still has force.
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[Benjahmin]

So here's a thing, you are clocked on your bike doing, lets say, 19mph.
The copper notices it is an assisted bike and pulls you over. How does he/she prove that the asisstance was actually being used? Sure there is no load speed on the wheel but only measured by the bikes speedo, hardly accurate given wheel size selection etc. All that can be said for sure is that you were travelling at said speed, the rest is moot - isn't it?
This isn't a justification for breaking the law, I don't. I'm just curious as to how, in practice, this speed law could be applied.

 

[flecc]

So here's a thing, you are clocked on your bike doing, lets say, 19mph.
The copper notices it is an assisted bike and pulls you over. How does he/she prove that the asisstance was actually being used? Sure there is no load speed on the wheel but only measured by the bikes speedo, hardly accurate given wheel size selection etc. All that can be said for sure is that you were travelling at said speed, the rest is moot - isn't it?
This isn't a justification for breaking the law, I don't. I'm just curious as to how, in practice, this speed law could be applied.

True, but of course the police can take the bike for testing and that would expose the illegality.

That still applies at 17 mph which is the point Capt Sisko made earlier, but the allowed tolerance means 17 mph detected wouldn't result in the bike being taken for testing.
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[Gubbins]

For anyone who lives outside London things are a bit different, or at least where I live they are.
My ebike interactions with the police have been interesting in that they seem to have no idea of ebike law, or that ebikes coukd be "souped up" and only stopped me to ask what it was and how it worked.. just the usual boys toys stuff with no suggestion that I might be riding illegally, even though I was obviously an old man going much faster than I should be able to.
One police car passed me 3 times, each time stopping to watch me ride past..
I accept that this will change as e-biking becomes more popular, if it hasn't already.

 

[flecc]

For anyone who lives outside London things are a bit different, or at least where I live they are.
My ebike interactions with the police have been interesting in that they seem to have no idea of ebike law, or that ebikes coukd be "souped up" and only stopped me to ask what it was and how it worked.. just the usual boys toys stuff with no suggestion that I might be riding illegally, even though I was obviously an old man going much faster than I should be able to.
One police car passed me 3 times, each time stopping to watch me ride past..
I accept that this will change as e-biking becomes more popular, if it hasn't already.

Except for those forces which have trialled e-bikes for police duty, a number have. Their traffic departments are well informed.
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[Gubbins]

Back to the question...
I ride as fast as I can all the time and for every bike I overtake 10 overtake me so I deduce that my speed (at least 15mph, regularly 18mph and ocasionally 20mph) is well below average, so if I were able to raise the cutoff to 18mph, would I appear to be obviously illegal? Most of the cyclists that pass me are doing 20+ which seems to be the norm here.

 

[flecc]

would I appear to be obviously illegal?

Only if an officer recognised it to be an e-bike, you were doing at least 20mph and he was following and clocking you. Otherwise no chance.
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[Gubbins]

Only if an officer recognised it to be an e-bike, you were doing at least 20mph and he was following and clocking you. Otherwise no chance.
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my ebike was one of the first with a more integrated battery so isnt so readily identifiable, and the newer road bikes are even less so, suggesting that a derestricted road bike could blend in. The big problem which we are not really discussing is that my road ebike can be ridden at up to 30mph unrestricted which is just a bit more than dangerous!

 

[Capt Sisko]

No I'm not. I'm repeating a statement given by the DfT in response to that query.

It doesn't change the law, but it does mean that if the police measure up to17 mph assisted a prosecution will not follow, ..............
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You are still missing the point, the law says the speed limit is XXmph and going above that speed can result in prossecution. It is a simple as that. Motorists have been done for doing 31 in a 30mph zone.

Guidelines are exactly that, guidelines. It is still illeagal to ride on the pavement and it is still illeagal to drive at 31mph in 30 zone, however sensible advice have been given to the Police not to prosecute for minor infringements. That advice can be ignored and you'd be laughed out of court if you tried to use it as a defence in your court case.

Lastly, do you have a link to the DfT statement?

 

[Nefarious]

The police can't use your speed against you as there is no way for them to know whether you were getting any assistance at the time. I ride at 30+mph on my commute in, entirely legally. However, if you have an accident or injure someone then, regardless what speed you are going, if you've modified your E-Bike, it will be held against you. Setting the assist limit to 17, is a modification, even if it is within conventional tolerances

 

[flecc]

You are still missing the point, the law says the speed limit is XXmph and going above that speed can result in prossecution. It is a simple as that. Motorists have been done for doing 31 in a 30mph zone.

Guidelines are exactly that, guidelines. It is still illeagal to ride on the pavement and it is still illeagal to drive at 31mph in 30 zone, however sensible advice have been given to the Police not to prosecute for minor infringements. That advice can be ignored and you'd be laughed out of court if you tried to use it as a defence in your court case.

Why not read what I posted? I am not missing the point since I posted this:

"No I'm not. I'm repeating a statement given by the DfT in response to that query.

It doesn't change the law,"

Therefore acknowledging the law still stands.

But the DfT stands by its statements. For example I have a case where a police officer tried to prosecute the 250 watts that I mentioned previously. That was long before the DfT had made the position clear by a formal statement and before the instruction to Chief Police Officers, but on representations to the DfT they told the force to drop the case.

An important function of this forum is giving useful advice and that is what I did. Your posting about the strict legal position is less than helpful and confusing to members.

I know the law in this area at least as well as you do, probably better after 67 years of following its development. But please take note of someone who knows far more about the practical situation through contact and involvement with the DfT and BEBA (now BA) on pedelec legal issues. The DfT were well aware of the purpose of our query on assist speed tolerance and have no problem with that.

I don't have the requested DfT link since the reply wasn't given online, so there isn't one. What they confirmed to ourselves was the legal position as far as they were concerned, there's 10% measurement tolerance.
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[flecc]

Setting the assist limit to 17, is a modification, even if it is within conventional tolerances

But not necessarily a modification, some pedelecs supplied as legal are capable of that 17 mph, taking advantage of the tolerance. That includes a number of Kalkhoff models as some owner members confirm.

Perhaps also see my post above about the practical situation, which is what matters.
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[Tim Davies]

That kind of presumes, Tim, that those people who choose to ride unregistered S-class machines and others who ride bikes deliberately set up outside of the legal parameters are somehow going to suddenly adhere to a revised law just because the maximum assisted speed is adjusted upwards slightly which might be considered, as you suggest, common sense. I'm afraid I don't buy that.

It's all about speed for them and as such, they should be riding either lightweight road bikes or using motorcycles/scooters, electric ones if they are concerned about the environment, which seems unlikely as they show no regard for the laws applicable to EAPCs as they stand.

Tom

Hi Tom
I wasn't actually advocating a rise in the speed limit its just the way as another had previously said it pluses in and out. The s class bike I have is in the process of being changed from a 350 watt to a 250 watt as I'm just awaiting the replacement engine to turn up ,( it was a gift from a friend which was used on private land) . I'm currently using my legal Bosch active line bike which cuts out at 15.5 which is fine as i can ride it up the 17-18 mph if I want to but I take your point that those who ride outside the law probably wouldn't care about where and when they ride above that, but the Question on the original tread was about what should be the new speed limit for ebike on UK roads and I was just giving my opinion that 17-18 mph but only with pedal assist, if you ride with just a throttle then in my opinion it should be lower. As for 7 kg road bike yes I have one but only one and I rarely use it as I'm much happier on one of my many touring bikes of which none are under 13 kg and if I'm camping they are a lot heavier so the speed thing isn't one I'm worried about its just the way it drops off. Anyway it's refreshing to chat about these things and I've learned something new so that's all good.

 

[flecc]

I was just giving my opinion that 17-18 mph but only with pedal assist, if you ride with just a throttle then in my opinion it should be lower.

Pedelec law bars throttles that act without pedalling, so there cannot be a separate speed limit for that. In law an e-bike that has an independent acting throttle is a motor vehicle that has to be type approved and registered according to it's speed and power class, usually L1e-A (low powered moped) or L1e-B (moped).
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[Capt Sisko]

An important function of this forum is giving useful advice and that is what I did. Your posting about the strict legal position is less than helpful and confusing to members.

Actually I am of the opposite view. I prefer to give people the facts and in this case what the guidelines are. It then allows them to make their decision based on all the information. If they then chose to stick to the letter of the law, push the limits or ignore it, it’s up to them.

In your post at 10.10am you stated, “You are permitted 17 mph assisted legally.” This is simple incorrect, goes against current UK e-bike legislation (NI excepted) and in itself is creating confusion to this forums members. The law is what it is and yes please feel free to offer advice, but if you are advising someone to bend to rules and use the alleged 10% leeway to their advantage, at a bare minimum put a Caveat to that effect.

 

[Tim Davies]

You are mixing up guidelines with the law. You are right in saying guidelines have been issued (for motor vehicles) that allow a 10% leeway, plus 3mph, but they are just guidelines and in the news recently was a report that under plans favoured by West Mercia's Chief Constable, drivers could be fined for going just 1mph over the speed limit.

Now we all know the odds of being pulled for doing a couple of MPH over the top are remote, (car, bike or totherwise) but a bored copper on a slow day in an area where there is a crackdown on speeding taking place and said bored copper is wondering why you're going so fast on a push bike and it could happen; particularly if an incident has taken place and they suspect you're e-bike has been modified.

This leads onto a second thought. Exactly which law would the authorities use to charge a cyclist with speeding? As we all know the current speeding laws do not apply to traditional cycles or legal e-bike, but if you've modified your e-bike to have a higher top speed then it's no longer an e-bike, but a moped, and all of a sudden the the law does apply and you're not speeding. See what I'm getting at. Okay you might be up to your neck in it for using an unregistered, untaxed etc bike, but (unless you actually are going above the signed speed limit), the rules have changed.

There are now fewer ‘grey areas’ than there were when UK and EU laws were different, but we still found some differences of opinion among some people in the industry.
Hi all I just dug this out from Cycling Weekly magazine which has left me a bit confused, see below.
James Fitzgerald, founder of electric bike retailer Just eBike says that “according to EU and UK law there is a 10 per cent margin on the maximum speed allowed for the motors to assist the pedals. But nobody knows about that.” That means that the motor could assist the cyclist up to a 17.5mph speed, and not 15.5 mph.


On the other hand, the brothers Lyle and James Metcalfe – founders of London-based UK ebike brand Volt, said they “had never heard of” this margin for error.

Peter Eland, technical manager of the Bicycle Association, which represents cycle suppliers, manufacturers and associated companies, told us: “The 10 per cent margin was clear in the EU legislation, but it’s questionable in the UK. Some motors cut off at the maximum speed allowed, some before that, but the majority do exceed the tolerance a little.”


Read more at https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/electric-bikes-uk-law-234973#fVqERIc0edRXQbYj.99

 

[georgehenry]

I noticed that I touched just over 62 kph on my ride home from work today with the motor off and me crouched over the bars down a short but steep hill.

I think we all enjoy our little debates about what speed limit we would prefer but after being on this site for a while now it is clear that the members that often contribute, me included, know what we think and have not changed our opinion since I have been involved in these debates.

Flec and I disagree about this but agree about helmets or in our case not wanting to be made to wear them. The rich pageant of life.

Having ridden fast motorcycles I am sometimes a bit amused about the way some people seem to recoil in horror at the suggestion of a change to 20mph limit and how devastatingly fast that speed is. Come on 5mph guys.

As I said I cannot see the limit changing as the government have enough on their plate at the moment. Don't mention Brexit. That is another long thread with a selection of amusing and intransigent views.

 

[Tim Davies]

Pedelec law bars throttles that act without pedalling, so there cannot be a separate speed limit for that. In law an e-bike that has an independent acting throttle is a motor vehicle that has to be type approved and registered according to it's speed and power class, usually L1e-A (low powered moped) or L1e-B (moped).
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Hi flecc pulled this out of Cycling Weekly magazine. I was just giving my opinion on throttle control as those I ridden didn't give me the feeling of control, I suppose it's down to personal taste, the same article also gave an opinion on any leeway on speed allowed but according to gov UK web site it's 15.5 so who knows who's right. I liked your pages on Panasonic engine ebike as I brought one for my wife it was a 26 volt ( it was brand new but had never been used) without a battery for under £90 so I thank you for the info on these machines.

The throttle ‘dilemma’
Harmonisation with EU law has had an important effect on electric bikes with ‘twist and go’ throttles that can take the bike to full speed without any pedalling at all.

From January 1 2016, the only throttles legal within the UK’s EAPC legislation are those that assist the rider without pedalling up to a maximum speed of 6 km/h (3.7 mph) – ie starting assistance only.

If the rider is rolling – but not pedalling – faster than 6km/h, the throttle cuts off. If the cyclist pedals at the same time then the throttle can still assist up to the general limit of 15.5mph.

If you bought an ebike with a full-speed throttle before January 1 2016, don’t panic: those sold prior to this date are still considered as EAPC and do not require a registration or taxed. Practically, you could still buy one a ‘twist and go’ and not be fined, but it would have to have been produced or imported before January 1.

 

[flecc]

Peter Eland, technical manager of the Bicycle Association, which represents cycle suppliers, manufacturers and associated companies, told us: “The 10 per cent margin was clear in the EU legislation, but it’s questionable in the UK.

Peter, ex Velovision and Electric Bike magazines editor, joined the BA after the position was cleared up with the DfT so is perhaps not up to speed it seems. The DfT advice is quite clear that the 10% applies.

Whether anyone want to take advantage of that is up to them, but since some manufacturers do they may find that reassuring.
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[flecc]

Having ridden fast motorcycles I am sometimes a bit amused about the way some people seem to recoil in horror at the suggestion of a change to 20mph limit and how devastatingly fast that speed is.

Not true for many of us Tim, including this ex motorcyclist, as I posted earlier it's not the actual speed that's the issue. It's what will come with it:

See this post

Given the existing motor vehicle classes, there is no way we'll get higher assist speed without more very unwelcome bureacracy.
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