What is the future?

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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It's definitely possible, but the market needs to get big enough.

Third world countries look down on all forms of cycling which is why they leap onto motorbikes and then cars asap, much of the western world is no more favourable, so I just don't see that mass market.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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flecc:
Third world countries look down on all forms of cycling which is why they leap onto motorbikes and then cars asap
True, that's because you can buy a Chinese 'Honda' for less than $1000 when ebikes are sold in the same countries for about the same money. In Malasia, petrol costs about 1.4 Malaysian Ringit (30p) a litre, a little more in Vietnam (about 40p a litre). If you sell ebikes for $500 - you have an intermediate step between push bikes and motobikes.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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It's a social issue in the third world Trex, believe me, they look down on all forms of cycling as being only for the poor and drop it as soon as they can. That attitude has even affected things here, people from those parts won't take up cycling and there's even been some schemes to try to persuade them otherwise, with no success though.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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shouldn't we talk about how good can ebikes be in the future rather than the depressing spectre of Chinese conversion kits sold at your local pound shops?
Would someone like to give me some idea how I can theoretically design a replacement of the rear cassette to act as a gearbox?
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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There have been many tries, but none match the efficiency of what we have. It's difficult to better 99%!
 

trex

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May 15, 2011
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flecc, there was a thread on this forum yesterday (or the day before) about the possible arrival of the sludge battery. Essentially, they invert the state of the 3 elements: anode (solid), salt bridge (liquid), cathode (solid) into liquid, solid, liquid. I just wonder if, at the rear wheel, we do away with the cassette, ie the motor goes where the cassette is at the moment, a new gearbox will go where the motor is, we would achieve a different 'Bosch' arrangement, thus not infringing their IP. The wheel is of course driven by the output of the gearbox.
 

lemmy

Esteemed Pedelecer
A couple of observations.

1 - My Panasonic unit has been utterly trouble free so far and shows no signs of ailing. So electric bikes are not intrinsically unreliable.

2- If you want anything of high quality and reliability, electric bike or anything else, it cannot be cheap.

3- Tesco may not sell electric bikes but Carrefour on the continent do and have done for several years - and they are bigger than Tesco. Just because something cannot be done in England does not mean it cannot be done.

4 - The social issue in developing countries. It has taken a long period of affluence, maybe 40 years for cycling to become 'cool' (how I hate that mind-shrinking word) in the UK. Even now, as we know, many car drivers treat us as inferior road users.

When I was a kid an adult riding a bicycle, or a motor-cycle come to that, was regarded as poor because they it meant they couldn't afford a car. Two wheelers were utilitarian, dirty, cold, greasy transport for the worker.

A long period of affluence means that most can afford a car so it loses its cachet. Mountain bikes, racing bikes, of late traditional style bikes, become flashy, colourful, hi -tec...'cool'. Most know now that a good bicycle is expensive, that a big Suzuki or BMW two wheeler costs as much, if not more than car. So now they are not for the poor and thus they are socially acceptable.

The Chinese, Indians,Indonesians will have to go through this process before bikes are acceptable to them. If they become affluent faster, maybe it will take less time.

As we read on this forum there are still some people worried about what other people think when they ride an electric bike, so the old feelings of half a century ago are by no means dead yet.
 

banbury frank

Banned
Jan 13, 2011
1,565
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Hi lemmy

This Fantastic Panasonic motor you have if it goes wrong sorry WHEN it Goes wrong BIN it it is a non serviceable unit you cant Buy spare parts And where can you buy a new one from
Members like flecc would love to take your unit and refurbish it but cant no parts

Answer You cant So throw the whole bike Away

It should be easy to just buy a new motor But that is not the Japanese way the want you to Buy a new bike

My simple Hub motors have 2 moving parts the main bearings and 3 simple hall sensors

And a 5 Year Warranty and after that we can service the unit



Frank
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
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Ipswich
True, that's because you can buy a Chinese 'Honda' for less than $1000 when ebikes are sold in the same countries for about the same money. In Malasia, petrol costs about 1.4 Malaysian Ringit (30p) a litre, a little more in Vietnam (about 40p a litre). If you sell ebikes for $500 - you have an intermediate step between push bikes and motobikes.
if you know anywhere still selling petrol for that price let me know, my relatives would be very interested!

It appears to have in fact doubled in recent times and even with the cheap prices its still a large chunk out of a family budget.

Although my extended family out there would be viewed as middle class and well off by the countries standards, still not everyone drives - usually only the elder males...

That is nothing to do with overt religious or cultural restrictions - its just that no one else is courageous enough to brave the roads - there was a big "might is right" culture and horrendous accident rates. My younger cousins are frightened to buy mopeds and strongly discouraged by their parents from having them, and with good reason!

In recent times bad road use is being clamped down on as the cops are using modern surveillance and enforcement techniques like CCTV and ANPR as well as "boots on the ground" and multi agency checks (of course they envy the relatively safe roads of neighbouring Singapore) but roads are far less safe even than Blighty. When one of my uncles was visiting here a while ago he was astounded to see that people rode bicycles on the main road without any helmet, as no one would dare do that where he lived! (people do cycle in Malaysia but it tends to be the young, fit and adventurous)

All that said, there were enough fast Chinese e-bikes being brought in there in recent times to make the Transport Minister consider banning all e-bikes - though they have now settled for the EU standard.
 

eTim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 19, 2009
607
2
Andover, Hants.
IMO FWIW (don't you just love internet abbreviations), the future of ebiking in the UK lies with our culture, create a cycling culture and people will follow, create more traffic free 'greenways' people will use them. Restrict the 4-wheel motorists more AND provide cycling capability, people will follow (just leave motorbikes alone :)

Change attitudes, spend money on cycling infrastructure, make driving anti-social or extremely expensive, people will change, it's been happening in larger cities since 7/7 and since public transport became too expensive, too overcrowded, too much of a pain. Increase provision on public transport and reduce fares and people will travel/commute further (although I can't see that happening for a long time).

And last but not least, improve the weather :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,811
30,379
3- Tesco may not sell electric bikes but Carrefour on the continent do and have done for several years - and they are bigger than Tesco. Just because something cannot be done in England does not mean it cannot be done.
That's not so much a national thing as a matter of dealer availability. Carrefour can't cope with bike servicing and warranty issues any more than Tesco can, but in mainland Europe bike dealer attitudes are very different and the popularity of e-bikes much greater, so service is always available. Most British bike dealers won't touch e-bikes and e-bikes don't exist in anything like the continental numbers. Until and unless we have a much greater take-up of e-bikes, things won't change.
 

lemmy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Frank, I wish you wouldn't treat my posts as a sales pitch. The next bike I buy may or may not have a Panasonic motor, I don't know.

I was writing about their reliability which I, Flecc and many others consider first class. I cannot take my car's components apart and repair them like I used to, seeing as they are sealed units now. However, I am happy with that in return for their reliability. That's the modern way.

I can see that you don't like the Panasonic units and I can understand your reasons but it doesn't look good coming from a dealer who doesn't sell them.

If you did sell them and posted the same it would be a bit different in my view. But other dealers on this forum do seem more measured in their views on rival systems.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm sure other members will tell me!
 

banbury frank

Banned
Jan 13, 2011
1,565
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Hi lemmy

I was only replying to your posting about how reliable your Panasonic powered Bike is Everything I said was true When your bike Goes wrong and it will . You will change your Tune on the way to the TIP .There have been plenty on the forum with problems

How simple would it be to just bolt in another unit . answer NOT available

Next Question the Bosch system will spare parts be available and replacement motor units be available knowing the Germans I would say YES but we will see after the warranty run out . But worth asking the Question can I buy a replacement power unit

and how much . If you can buy a replacement battery why not a drive unit

Frank
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,811
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Not so Frank, replacement units are readily available in stock in Europe and can be despatched promptly.

And there haven't been plenty of posts about the units failing in this forum, I've only ever heard of one of the second generation units doing so, and I get feedback via my support site from all around the world on these. In view of the many thousands of the later units out there over the last 5 years, the reliability is incredibly good.

The earlier unit did have some known problems but the failure incidence was very low despite that, and there are large numbers still in use without a fault as far back as their introduction ten years ago.
 

banbury frank

Banned
Jan 13, 2011
1,565
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Hi Flecc

Good news so can you post a link to where to buy and how much they cost and where spare parts are available

And start a new link new Panasonic e bike motor units

why would you need to run a support site if the NEVER go Wrong showing how to fix problems

Frank
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,811
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They come from the suppliers of the e-bikes using them Frank, kept in stock just in case and quoted at €500 euros last year when inquired about.

They can't be used on standard bike frames of course so no point in any links for members without a Panasonic unit bike, and those with one don't need it since they haven't been failing.

The earlier unit used by the Giant Lafree was always available ex stock too and immediately despatched by post from Giant's Netherlands base.
 

lemmy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Hi Flecc

Good news so can you post a link to where to buy and how much they cost and where spare parts are available

And start a new link new Panasonic e bike
I go to dealer and maker web sites for that. All a simple Google away.

Flecc is not trying to flog anything, just telling it how he sees it and sharing his experience.

I'm sure you could use this site to shift much more of your product by being bit less forceful and didactic.
 
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indalo

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
1,380
1
Herts & Spain
I'm sure you could use this site to shift much more of your product by being bit less forceful and didactic.
It's quite rare for me to read a new word but I had to look up that one Lemmy. I can't ever remember hearing or seeing "didactic" before. Delightful!

Regards,
Indalo
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
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Perhaps Frank's views are coming from his own experience of selling low end Chinese produced kits supplied by BMS Battery. :p ;)