11000 watts/60 mph bike on ebay

[Wisper Bikes]

Illegal or not illegal??

Very simply put, the Wisper and all bikes that have a 250W motor do not comply to UK legislation.

In the majority of cases these bikes do however comply to EU legislation, Wisper bikes for instance have been tested independently and comply with EN15194.

After very short and simple talks between "the powers that be" and BEBA, we have been told that bikes conforming to either the UK or the EU standard are acceptable and it is very unlikely to be any prosecutions of the riders of such bikes.

There are some bike manufacturers that cherry pick, mixing the UK spec to justify a full throttle, then utilising the EU's rules to specify a 250W motor. These bikes do not comply with either EU or UK law and it is my understanding that riders would be open to prosecution.

Until the DfT has made it's long awaited ruling, and as long as the bikes are specified within the spirit of the law, I believe that as long as people are sensible, the likelihood of the police being even vaguely interested is remote.

Regards

David

 

[Xcytronex]

Cheers David - sanity at last.
My point being manufacturers can sell their bikes legally [even Ebay man] ---legallity is down to the end user---in this case CeeGee + 'Wally'.

 

[NRG]

Hi the answer is simple if you have ANY MAKE off bike and you are not sure


connect a watts up meter the battery connector and it will record all the power used

Or a cycle analyst with a power bridge

I would expect with a 36 volt battery to see 500/600 watts

But that is peak power not nominal

You will measure what is pulled from the battery but that's not what the motor pulls or what power the motor produces, unless your local Police Force have some sort of road side Dyno to measure true output you can only guess at the real output...

 

[Xcytronex]

I bet sales of the Alien 'Aurora ' have improved through this thread !!!!
Would rather have a new Alfine Wisper with off road capability though---
providing bicycle halos aren't made compulsory !!!

 

[flecc]

I bet sales of the Alien 'Aurora ' have improved through this thread !!!!

It's how the sales of the 22 mph Torq 1 expanded in 2006/7 to becoming the top seller.

Having an overgeared motor which meant it could only climb well when helped to maintain speed by a strong rider resulted in it being the fastest to get onto the second hand market in quantities too, selling as low as one third of cost at six months old.

"All that glisters is not gold" is the relevant ancient saying.
.

 

[banbury frank]

H

I thought a rolling road measured brake horse power


Watts is volts X amps


Frank

 

[Streethawk]

Nope, it originates from steam engine output. That formula just proves watt-hours.

 

[Jeremy]

There seems to be a little bit of confusion here about units of power and it may be related to my earlier comment in this thread.

The regulations are framed in terms of the electric motor mechanical power output, in watts at the motor shaft, not an easy thing to measure without some sort of dynamometer. Even a rolling road measurement wouldn't be that accurate for some types of bike, because it would measure the power at the wheel, rather than at the motor shaft (for a non-geared hub motor this may not matter too much, but it will skew the results for a geared hub motor or a crank drive system).

The electrical power input, also measured in watts, will be significantly greater than the mechanical power output, because electric motors are imperfect machines and are always less than 100% efficient.

Most ebike electric motors will be around 80 to 90% efficient, and almost certainly never less than about 75% efficient. This means that you can do a rough check to estimate the mechanical power output of the motor by simply measuring the electrical power input. This won't pick up borderline cases, but it's at least good enough to check whether or not a particular ebike is likely to fall inside, or outside, the legal power restrictions. It won't be a foolproof measurement, but will show gross problems with legality fairly well.

If you measure the electrical power input, then as long as it doesn't exceed around 330 watts (derived from 250 watts x (1/75%)) then you can probably assume that the ebike is legal. If the electrical power input exceeds this figure, then unless the motor is particularly poor and inefficient (easy to check, as it will run hot - all that power has to go somewhere) then the ebike is probably illegal. If it significantly exceeds this figure, then you can be pretty sure it's illegal.

The rules are framed in terms of continuous power, so an ebike controller that over-shoots it's current/power limit for a few seconds and momentarily draws more power may be OK, as long as it doesn't continuously draw excessive power when under maximum demand from the rider.

BTW, 1 hp = 746 watts, they are both equally valid units of power, be it mechanically derived or electrically derived, although the official SI unit of power is the watt.

Jeremy

 

[banbury frank]

Testing

So how do they test the bikes to EN15194

On a roiling road or electrically

Frank

 

[banbury frank]

testing

Hi sorry i will answer my own question

I must apologize for the copyright of this document

I have left the owners name on a recognition

Boutique AFNOR pour : E-NOV VEHICULES le 3/8/2009 09:33
NF EN 15194:2009-05
Annex D
(informative)
Maximum power measurement - Alternative method
D.1 Generalities
This Annex gives guidance on how to measure the power at the wheel.
The maximum power which the bicycle gives assistance may differ by ± 5% of the power indicated on the label described in Clause 5. During a production conformity check, the maximum speed may differ by ± 10% from the above-mentioned determined value. The test shall be performed without pedalling using only the electrical assistance system (the test bicycle shall be prepared accordingly).
D.2 Test conditions
a) The test may be performed either on a test track, a test bench or on a stand that keeps the motor driven wheel free of the ground.
b) The speed-measuring device should have the following characteristics:  Accuracy: ± 2%  Resolution: 0,1 km/h c) The ambient temperature should be between 5 °C and 35 °C.
d) Maximum wind speed: 3 m/s. e) The battery should be fully charged according to the manufacturer's instructions. f) The test should be performed with mass of the test bicycle equal to 150 kg.
D.3 Test procedure
Any appropriate method for checking for this requirement is acceptable.
a) Pre-condition the EPAC by running it for 5 min at 80% of the maximum assistance speed as declared by the manufacturer.
b) Stop the bicycle.
c) Note the time between the action start and the EPAC to travel 20 meters.
d) Verify the speed value is equal or less than the maximum speed declared by the manufacturer after 20 metres (D).
2D2 e) Verify the maximum continuous rated power at wheel is: P = m × T 3 with the time T which is the
noted value in c).

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I don't understand that last formula at all. can someone explain it? Is m the mass of 150kg? What does T3 mean: Is it T cubed? If m is the mass, then the longer the time, the higher the power, which is clearly wrong. Is it T/3?

Another point: The test has to be done with a fully charged battery, which can give about 10 -15% higher power than it's normal/average power, which doesn't seem fair!

 

[NRG]

Yes you would think it would call out for the test to be done at the nominal battery voltage. Also to add to Jeremys post motor efficiency drops with speed so the power output figures could be lower than mentioned, it's all a can of worms really...And peak power is not defined, no mention of duration or limit....

 

[10mph]

I don't understand that last formula at all. can someone explain it? Is m the mass of 150kg? What does T3 mean: Is it T cubed? If m is the mass, then the longer the time, the higher the power, which is clearly wrong. Is it T/3?

I agree, the formula has been considerably garbled somewhere along the line.

Assuming constant acceleration, over a distance s, ie 20 metres in this test, we would get acceleration a=2s/(T*T) and force,F= a*m where m is the mass of bike plus rider ie defined to be 150kg in test conditions see point D.2 (d)

Total work is force *distance
and power is work/time

So power P= m*2s*s/(T*T*T)

There is thus quite a bit missing from the formula as quoted by banbury_frank.

The whole test description looks a bit sketchy and suspect, even though it gives the some appearance of rigour by quoting tolerances and accuracies. Also I dont particularly see that that the acceleration would necessarily be constant over 20 meters, but I suppose that criticism might be answered by saying that the test just models performance on that assumption, and they have got to make some assumptions to give a definitive go-no-go test.

What is interesting to me is to ask how quickly a bike will go with 250 watts applied over 20 metres.

I make T cubed = 480
so T=7.8 seconds
and velocity at 20m = 5.1m/s

 

[jbond]

or on a stand that keeps the motor driven wheel free of the ground.

So measuring the no-load speed?

 

[banbury frank]

download

sorry I may off lost some off it

this is the link for the download

Also it IS French

And 38 pages long you need page 33

Frank

 

[10mph]

No link in your post, banbury _frank but I have just googled and found an English version at
http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf

Page 33 gives the formula P=m*2D*D/(T*T*T) which is what I derived above.

The document looks like an official European Standard - French Standard for EPAC Bicycles.

Does what the French engineers do in testing matter to us?

 

[banbury frank]

I fond the link sory the telephon wang and pot me offff


www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf

Is enybody the wiser

Frank

Ps have you sen the new alo alo on BBC

I have Took at the speling

 

[stevebills]

I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.

 

[Xcytronex]

I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.

Qautily !!!!!!!!!

 

[indalo]

Excellent Steve & Xcytronex! Especially in the context of this thread......I can't stop laughing!

Indalo