A Crank Call
- Thread starter Graeme
- Start date
As an unashamed lover of my Tonaro Enduro, I must leap to its defence.
1 I am no longer a 'cyclist', so light weight is not a need for me, nor does it impress me. I am delighted with the moped like qualities of the Tonaro and am not looking for a 'stealth' bike which looks and feels like a normal pedal cycle.
2 Riding around Richmond Park is hardly a test of the system. On the flat my bike easily gets up to the legal limit, just like many others. The point is that on the flat, it will do this without any pedalling. For old legs like mine, that is frequently a bonus.
3 I live in a very hilly place. In bottom gear (34 gear inches), the Tonaro will bring me up a 1 in 9 hill on throttle alone. Again useful if really needed. Phrases like 'Will go up the side of a house etc.' are meaningless unless the amount of pedal assistance is quantified. The only practical test is to put the bike in bottom gear, weigh the rider and then see what gradient will cause it to stall.
1 I am no longer a 'cyclist', so light weight is not a need for me, nor does it impress me. I am delighted with the moped like qualities of the Tonaro and am not looking for a 'stealth' bike which looks and feels like a normal pedal cycle.
2 Riding around Richmond Park is hardly a test of the system. On the flat my bike easily gets up to the legal limit, just like many others. The point is that on the flat, it will do this without any pedalling. For old legs like mine, that is frequently a bonus.
3 I live in a very hilly place. In bottom gear (34 gear inches), the Tonaro will bring me up a 1 in 9 hill on throttle alone. Again useful if really needed. Phrases like 'Will go up the side of a house etc.' are meaningless unless the amount of pedal assistance is quantified. The only practical test is to put the bike in bottom gear, weigh the rider and then see what gradient will cause it to stall.
This is a misunderstanding, it's not true. The "walk-alongside" throttle is an option only, available on any Panasonic unit bike, when new or as an aftermarket addition..
On most models it conforms to the pedestrian controlled vehicle legislation at a maximum speed of 4 mph, but because the S models are faster than the normal e-bike legal assist limit, that throttle when fitted allows it to operate up to about 12 mph, depending on the model's gear system. That's still not much use on a 25 mph bike, and is anyway illegal in both Britain and mainland Europe.
Thanks for clearing that up, if it is a misunderstanding its based on the 50 Cycles description of the Connect S.
This is not Torano as such but it is a link to a site where you can find out more info. Home Page of Powerpedals electric bicycles
These right-angle drive crank motor systems became momentarily popular in 1999 with the original very heavy Giant Lafree and the Yamaha XP26. The former was very heavy, slow and sluggish, the latter better but often said to be moped-like, though Yamaha persisted with three different models in all.
When Panasonic introduced their first unit, Giant immmediately designed a much lighter bike to use it as the Lafree Twist, dropping their old model, and the new Lafree quickly became the preferred choice. So dominant was it that Yamaha withdrew from the UK market and some while later withdrew their models from Europe too. Since then, Yamaha have waved a white flag and replaced the right-angle crank drive with a close imitation of the Panasonic unit, this now seen here on the Gepida e-bike models.
So the picture is clear, as I've previously observed, the Tonaro system is a blast from the past, and as Tim's observations show, with some of those old 1999 attributes. They are a very useful addition to the market at their budget prices, but I'd hope that much better and without the frame eccentricities will appear in that market before too long.
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I agree Graeme, I've challenged that interpretation in here before on a few occasions!
Motorized bottom bracket makes more sense I guess like an optibike.
Still crank drives do offer gears and the ability / off road ability that people would like. It undoubtably better than a hub.
However with the legislation and law hub drives offer something cheaper / retrofitment that straight forward on a bike and generally helps with most peoples needs.
I'm sure more and more bikes will develop crank driven systems. But at the end of the day its at the end users list of wants that funds it.
Most hubs are happy with the legal limit and offer a decent amount of torque at hill climbing speeds.
However you shouldn't use them off road and dont offer as much assitance and flexibility if you want to slow down and still have a decent amount or torque.
Gears give flexibility and also effcienty that is user controlled.
But the cost aspect is more.
Still crank drives do offer gears and the ability / off road ability that people would like. It undoubtably better than a hub.
However with the legislation and law hub drives offer something cheaper / retrofitment that straight forward on a bike and generally helps with most peoples needs.
I'm sure more and more bikes will develop crank driven systems. But at the end of the day its at the end users list of wants that funds it.
Most hubs are happy with the legal limit and offer a decent amount of torque at hill climbing speeds.
However you shouldn't use them off road and dont offer as much assitance and flexibility if you want to slow down and still have a decent amount or torque.
Gears give flexibility and also effcienty that is user controlled.
But the cost aspect is more.
Eddieo(just how do you pronounce it?)Mike, I cant think of anything more unappealing to ride........Probably another in needs a moped
I used to think the Tonaros were not the best looking, but in the flesh so to speak they look fine and many other modern pedal bikes look similar. Lots of people have commented that it's a fine looking bike. One advantage of not having a rear triangle is that you can easily take the chain off for cleaning. Both wheels are quick release, disc brakes which are powerful, all in all it's a great bike.
I suppose it is what you personally want from a bike. Back in the 1950's, I opted for a Triumph Palm Beach tourist, my friend for a Raleigh Trent Sports. At a glance, totally different bikes, but closer inspection showed that most parts including the frames were identical. My tourist was comfy, his was sporty, but neither seemed any faster than the other. I liked the looks of my bike, he detested them!
Mike as long as your happy that is the main thing.....pretty confident that you would prefer the ride of a Bosch or Panasonic bike but would probably miss the throttle....
As fo my name not sure. It is my abbreviated first name (Eddie - Edward) and first letter of my surname (think Irish..bejasus!) I guess it should be a capital O'
As fo my name not sure. It is my abbreviated first name (Eddie - Edward) and first letter of my surname (think Irish..bejasus!) I guess it should be a capital O'
Now you say that, but we've had a Bosch-powered Haibike in the shop for 3 months now and people ALWAYS choose one of our Kalkhoffs over it every time. It looks lovely in the window, but it's still here. I'm beginning to feel a bit sorry for it.
I think it comes down to this - once you reach 15mph you hit a wall as the assistance gives out very abruptly. With a panasonic drive the cut-off is very gradual and everyone so far has preferred that characteristic. The other problem is range with the relatively modest battery capacity.
Not so.....Whos opinion do I trust? Many like minded German e bike enthusiasts? or a dealer with a vested interest in shifting his stock.
I own one and the range is more then adequate and a nicer bike then the Panasonic any day. Your 18Ah battery getting very mixed reviews as well... Yes the abrupt cut of not that great, but bike light and easy to peddle above that...and a better hill climber then even an S class! Must be the benefit of a modern 36v system....
just look what is happening in Germany where manufactures are all adopting this system..even the Swiss firm Flyer have a Bosch powered bike planned for 2012
I cant believe you have both bikes side by side and you cant see the advantages of the Bosch. Well 16 major European manufacturers can, including your own! and Flyer (responsible for the best Panasonic bikes yet)
I own one and the range is more then adequate and a nicer bike then the Panasonic any day. Your 18Ah battery getting very mixed reviews as well... Yes the abrupt cut of not that great, but bike light and easy to peddle above that...and a better hill climber then even an S class! Must be the benefit of a modern 36v system....
just look what is happening in Germany where manufactures are all adopting this system..even the Swiss firm Flyer have a Bosch powered bike planned for 2012
I cant believe you have both bikes side by side and you cant see the advantages of the Bosch. Well 16 major European manufacturers can, including your own! and Flyer (responsible for the best Panasonic bikes yet)
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Hi
Now this is a real CRANK drive bike or is the crank the rider
Jet rocket bike. Fast as, 236 khm. Cool - YouTube
Frank
Now this is a real CRANK drive bike or is the crank the rider
Jet rocket bike. Fast as, 236 khm. Cool - YouTube
Frank
Just wanted to pick up on this...the panasonic system is not 250w max. The system gives a max of about 400w...multiplied via the gearing system it gives great hill climbing ability. The simple magnetic pedelec sensor ring on the typical hub bike is very limited in what it can do... there is no direct easy way of controlling motor speed by cadence, its either on or off....some systems do have a cadence ramp but they are ineffective in use and the rider ends up pedalling air to maintain a speed under the assist level.
So the only way to control speed is to use a 3 or 5 way switch to provide a crude way of selecting speed. The Panasonic system with its ability to sense rider input can be controlled easily by the rider below the max assist speed to provide true power control and maintain speed without being propelled into the distance unwanted.
As the system is cadence based it gives greatest assist as cadence slows just when the rider requires it as they tire or slow on a hill...yes its counter intuitive if used to unpowered or hib powered bikes but it works well in practice.
But my understanding of the Panasonic/Bosch systems is that they limit the power available to twice the rider input.
If this is so, to obtain 400w assistance means pedalling 200 watts. If you can only manage 50 watts, it will only give you 100 watts.
Is this correct? or am I mistaken.
If this is so, to obtain 400w assistance means pedalling 200 watts. If you can only manage 50 watts, it will only give you 100 watts.
Is this correct? or am I mistaken.
That is correct, twice the rider input when switched to high power mode.
However, you have a gloomy view of human capability. Sat down and relaxed in an armchair requires some 56 watts!
Here's the pedalling capability of an average male in their middle years:
300 watts for about 10 minutes continuous.
200 watts for about 1 hour continuous.
100 watts for about 5 hours continuous.
So that's around an hour at 400 watts, or the whole battery content at not far short of that, both continuously. Since almost no journey is uphill for hours, there is no restriction.
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Hold on ive just wet meself eddieo reading the Garbage you have just wrote ,let me just go and have a good chuckle ,have you got the Tonaro mixed up with one of your own push bikes ,lol even the very name Tonaro strikes fear in to the the average e/biker as not many could tame the awesome power of this beast ,let alone stay onboard at full power ,i can quite understand why you have not quite got to grips with understanding the full potential of such an outstanding E/bike, as the Tonaro is not just a sit and ride bike ,she has to be handled with loving care ,not treated like a goat ,and as for the Bosch
climbing a wall lol ,the Grand Tonaro takes on Mountains ,my very best wishes to you my friend ,Brian.
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