ARCC Moulton and the Process of Getting There (LONG)

Danidl

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It's still a relatively free world and if that is what makes you happy ok... However I am with d8veh on this one... A single device with better GPS , more recent map updates, ability to use both GPS satellites and triangulated measurements from cell towers
A better camera , particularly on the more recent models
Waterproof.
Longer battery life.. particularly in the premium Sony and Samsung models than music players or GPS devices
Whereas earlier Mobilephones may have made compromises , the current premium models are almost certainly better in every technical characteristic than the collection of devices you carry. The sound quality in radio or recorded music from my Samsung s7 is better than any other device I have.
There has been a massive engineering effort expended in this specific area, and it now shows.
Unfortunately that model the Samsung s7 for whatever reason does not have the FM radio enabled, so I compromise and bring an older Sony phone , without SIM for use as a radio.
Like many a rational adult I do not use or understand the attraction of Facebook ....
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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Like many a rational adult I do not use or understand the attraction of Facebook ....
Easy: give all of your personal information to some dweeb with no clues to make him a billionaire! The attraction is that he has said it would make you very cool and that "old people (anyone over his age) don't get it"...
 

Croxden

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Jan 26, 2013
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Easy: give all of your personal information to some dweeb with no clues to make him a billionaire! The attraction is that he has said it would make you very cool and that "old people (anyone over his age) don't get it"...
Apparently, according to a neighbour, you have control of what info Facebook has. Indeed I have full control, I don't have Facebook and not likely ever too. I begging to sound a proper Luddite.
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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No, you sound reasonable.

I do have a Google+ account because it has always from day 1 had many private data protection features. It also has the hangouts function which lets me video chat with family and friends all over the world. Our record is a chat spanning four different countries: Australia, NZ (3 different towns), Denmark and France!

I don't have a public "news" stream so am not subjected to "news" I don't want. All my G+ activities are private groups I have either created or joined knowing the people who created them - boats and boating, velomobiles, Linux is my world view...
 

Templogin

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May 15, 2014
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I can't believe that a phone has a better GPS than a dedicated GPS where I live. What you are missing is that there is often no signal for the phone to triangulate. There are also very few trees on Shetland, so no tree cover means good satellite reception.

Battery life - the other thing that smartphone users moan about, after the poor quality camera, is that the GPS functions suck the life of their batteries. For users with cars you probably just plug them into the lighter socket. I ride a bike or take the bus so there is no power available. I don't know how long the batteries in my bike computer last as I have never tried them, but another Garmin GPS last over 24 hours on two AAA batteries. The GPS datalogger lasts 40 hours I believe, this is about 3 inches long in its longest dimension, so must have a tiny inbuilt battery. Going back to battery life, I have read many stories of walkers out on the hills on the UK mainland, using a smartphone for their mapping, suddenly finding themselves without any map when the battery expires due to the GPS' power requirements. It goes without saying that The GPS will suck more power when searching for mobile towers, especially when it is not finding one to lock onto.

My description of my tablet being a phone without a SIM was based on ip telephony, a mindset brought about by poor mobile signal here. You are quite right in your description of GSM systems. Long before mobile phones came to the general public I was involved in testing a military system at Plessey. The cells were mobile, truck based systems, but otherwise the system was the the same with mobile voice and data traffic.

My camera is a Canon Powershot S95, and I would be more than amazed if mobile phone cameras were better than this camera in all conditions. I assume that when you say a better camera, you mean than the dross that has preceded it?

Waterproof? To what IPX standard? My GPS can be dunked in water. The datalogger can't though, but I wanted to be able to swap out the microSD card so that was my choice.

Radio - I have no interest in a radio on the move. I would rather look at the view or chat to a fellow passenger. If I am on the bus the driver may have his radio on, so I have little choice. On the bike I would rather be listening to the traffic noise. My Roberts radio at home is fine as far as a weak FM signal will allow. There is no DAB signal where I live, and the Pure DAB radio that I bought so long ago has sat unused for over a decade. Of course I could get a phone line run into the house, but the only choice is through BT as the local loop still hasn't been unbundled. Virgin, who offer fibre broadband only to the house have not rolled out the service up here, and if others are anything to go by, never will.

Reception - when you hear the BBC in respect to DAB, mobile phone companies and BT in respect to coverage, waffling about their coverage, it is always expressed as a percentage in respect to the amount of people that their service covers in the U.K., not the coverage of the land mass. This is great if you live in a sprawling urban conurbation, but once you move about in the less populated regions you suddenly see how dire coverage from any of these "great" institutions is. I have friends here that can't get broadband. They are just too far from the exchange and have to have satellite broadband. We looked at a little house recently. Up until recently there had been broadband available, albeit slow. The nearest, previously empty house, some 300 yards away, had become occupied, the residents choosing to have broadband meant that the house we were looking at could no longer have it, presumably a capacity issue. Now, I am not complaining about any of these things, it is just the way it is, why I have the mindset that I have, and why I choose the equipment I choose. It is the best for the job here. The BBC and BT in particular are not bothering to invest in remote communities unless the government give them handouts. We will always have slower services, if any service, than anyone else because we have the lowest amount of people per square mile, and therefore the service is more difficult to deliver for less potential reward.

One point that I have made that does not seem to have been taken into consideration is that the size of the iPad mini screen is the size compromise that I am not willing to go under. I don't want to squint at these tiny screens on today's mobiles. I don't care how good the quality is, at the magnification that I am comfortable reading at there will still be less on the screen that the iPad mini. Yes smartphone screens have increased in size since the days of the T28, one of my early phones, but when they reach the size of the iPad mini, I would still rather use my current Nokia dumb phone.

I haven't mentioned the Android OS being different to all my other devices, but there is no point because I would not consider even an iPhone. The system that I have got is the best system for me and the place that I live and the remote places I ride though when I am cycle touring.

Live on a remote Scottish island for a few years and you will soon realise the limitation of your all in one device when you can't get onto the internet to do whatever that important thing that can't wait is, can't use most of the inbuilt functionality, most of which is actually a remote service in reality. At least you will still be able to take some nice photos though.

If you don't know the geography, as most cartographers put Shetland in a box-out on maps, Shetland is nearer to the capital of Norway than London. The lines of 60 and 61 degrees north run through the island group. Lerwick, our main town pop. c7,000, is roughly 150 miles north of Aberdeen, which is an hour by air or 10-12 hours by ferry. The islands are windy, unpolluted and have very low crime rates. A missing bicycle, people don't bother to lock them here, will probably be reported on the radio, along with missing phones,even the dumb ones. Out of Lerwick it is not unusual for people to leave their keys in their cars and the houses unlocked. Young kids will wander about on their own, and a woman will feel perfectly safe walking home late at night. The roads are well surfaced and maintained. There are plenty of sports centres, each with their own swimming pool. The old folks homes are council run on the whole and are first class places apparently. Almost everyone seems to start work at around 9 am so there is a build-up of traffic in Lerwick in the morning, but at 5 o'clock a traffic jam extends to about 15 cars at the roundabout at the same time. That's 15 in total. There are only 4 roundabouts in Shetland. There is a good bus system, which is very cheap. I travel the 18 miles to work for £2 each way. A recent 5 mile each way return trip on a bus in Sussex cost me £7.70. We have a number of inter-island to-to ferries, which cost £5 return as a foot passenger. Pushbikes go free. The ferries run frequently. If you prefer to fly the two Islander planes can take you out to air strips on most of the islands. The Islanders fly out of Tingwall Airport mainly, 7 miles from Lerwick. If you arrive from Lerwick to take a plane and the weather conditions are not suitable then, but may improve later, the pilot will tell you when he reckons it will be better, offer you a seat in the waiting room, but suggest that you go home and he will ring you when it looks better. He will then wait for you to get back to the plane, which is a lifeline service for some of the islands so has to fly most days of the week if possible. I think that they seat about 8 including the pilot, but I have found myself the only passenger, sat up front with the pilot on more than one occasion, so he might take you by a more scenic route. I could go on but I won't. Whatever you do though, please don't think that this is some land of milk and honey that I am trying to portray, we have crap mobile signal coverage after all.

Andy
 

Templogin

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May 15, 2014
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Oops! I think that there are roundabouts. I just remembered another one. They could build a phone mast on them so we could all snapchat!
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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Smartphones have more accurate GPS than dedicated GPS devices because they use A-GPS, which gives faster acquisition and higher resolution on positioning. A dedicated GPS can only use the GPS signal.
 

Templogin

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May 15, 2014
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The trouble is that it downloads GPS and almanac data through the GSM network...

Assisted GPS, also known as A-GPS or AGPS, enhances the performance of standard GPS in devices connected to the cellular network. A-GPS improves the location performance of cell phones (and other connected devices) in two ways:

-By helping obtain a faster "time to first fix" (TTFF). A-GPS acquires and stores information about the location of satellites via the cellular network (see almanac) so the information does not need to be downloaded via satellite.

-By helping position a phone or mobile device when GPS signals are weak or not available. GPS satellite signals may be impeded by tall buildings, and do not penetrate building interiors well. A-GPS uses proximity to cellular towers to calculate position when GPS signals are not available.

Source: https://www.lifewire.com/assisted-gps-1683306
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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[
after all.

Andy[/QUOTE]
Hi Andy, I really appreciated the insight into Shetland living. The closest to such island living I have had. has been visits to the outer Hebrides and islands on the west coast of Ireland. No land of milk and honey perhaps but I suspect that there are numbers of mother's living in high rise council flats trying to keep their kids from going wrong who might disagree with you.
I enjoyed watching the crime drama Shetland and your missive helps put it into perspective.

Now to the few technical bits
Waterproof ... Yes ipx65 immersion in 1 metre of water for one hour ... More water than lodges in your waterproof. Jacket see Sony and Samsung premium models.
Better camera debatable... camera video a 4k video rates, have 20 to 40 mega pixels, smaller lens, but later technology sensors with higher quantum sensitivity. Some have optical image stabilisation. Remember your camera has 7 to 8 year old technology inside , these premium phones have last year's. The quality of the image is ultimately the photographer not the technologies. The screen display for setting up the image at least twice the viewable area of your model.
Depending on the age of your GPS, yes these may be faster and more reliable in fixing. Coordinates .. There have been changes in the sensitivity of the GPS radio receivers and need models can detect signal inside building, not just opensky line of sight. What is not in debate is that the map updates are more frequent on the mobile phone
I am not aware of mobile phones doing DAB and anyway it is overrated. IMHO the suppliers damaged its potential by transmitting excessively compressed data. In any event while at home you could should be using a a dvb T2 settop box feeding your audio system for your BBC3 radio fix. If you had home broadband, there is an infinity of radio stations available on the Tunein application, .. available on Apple, android and Windows.
I can accept your reluctance to view any screen smaller than iPad mini, but can assure you that the 5 inch very high resolution screens on topend phones are nearly as good. I am short sighted and would have no difficulty in reading a novel on the Samsung.... Not as pleasant as on a 8 inch screen, but as pleasant as on a Kindle.
Rather than paraphrase your father I would suggest that the best tool is the one at hand.

Regards Dan
 
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Deleted member 4366

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The trouble is that it downloads GPS and almanac data through the GSM network...
No it doesn't. You can preload the maps the same as any other GPS, except you have the choice of which maps to use: Google, Cyclemaps, OS, Cmap, Navionics or whatever you want.

Assisted GPS, also known as A-GPS or AGPS, enhances the performance of standard GPS in devices connected to the cellular network. A-GPS improves the location performance of cell phones (and other connected devices) in two ways:

-By helping obtain a faster "time to first fix" (TTFF). A-GPS acquires and stores information about the location of satellites via the cellular network (see almanac) so the information does not need to be downloaded via satellite.

-By helping position a phone or mobile device when GPS signals are weak or not available. GPS satellite signals may be impeded by tall buildings, and do not penetrate building interiors well. A-GPS uses proximity to cellular towers to calculate position when GPS signals are not available.

Source: https://www.lifewire.com/assisted-gps-1683306
I think that's what I said above apart from the bit about the phone being able to get a position even when they switch off the GPS signal, which does happen from time to time.

As an aside, I have a fixed GPS plotter in my boat. It cost about £600 and takes a bit of figuring out how to use. I can't remember the last time I switched it on. I just use my phone now with iBoating app. It's pinpoint accurate, dead easy to use, and cost about £18.

Regarding power. The old iPhones drained your battery in an hour when using the GPS. With modern phones, you can navigate all day without flattening the battery. Also, most ebikes/ebike kits now have a USB charge socket to power your phone or any other accessory, and if you don't have that, you can get a powerpack, which will power the phone for two weeks navigation with the screen on.
 
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D8ve

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2013
2,142
1,294
Bristol
....... Long before mobile phones came to the general public I was involved in testing a military system at Plessey. The cells were mobile, truck based systems, but otherwise the system was the the same with mobile voice and data traffic.

My camera is a Canon Powershot S95, and I would be more than amazed if mobile phone cameras were better than this camera in all conditions. I assume that when you say a better camera, you mean than the dross that has preceded it?
...
Andy
As an ex MOULD tech I worked with Pye Pegasus handbags and had a blue and cream Landy.
And some people don't know that the glass on the camera is way more important than the sensor. A crisp image on the sensor is the start, a blurry one cannot make a clear image.
 
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Templogin

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May 15, 2014
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The research cycle is starting again, but this time it is my other half. Having ridden the ARCC Moulton, and being blown away by it, and seeing how much it helps me crack along at a decent pace, which she can't match, she has decided that the time has come for her to have one. As I have said before, she is not keen on the Moulton, preferring larger wheels.

I wrote out a list of what she should look for, what and whom she should avoid, and she spent many hours going around in circles on the net, overwhelmed by the choice available. She would send me links or show me pictures of what she felt fitted the criteria. One downhill bike looked really nice, but was totally wrong on many counts for her daily cycle commutes to a job in the morning and another in the afternoon, trips to the supermarket, (she doesn’t own a car), trips with the recycling and cycle touring. One piece of advice that I gave her was that whatever she did she should not buy a bike with an Impulse 2 motor in it. There were too many experiences of failures reported on this fine forum.

See here - http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/ongoing-reliability-of-kalkhoff-focus-impulse-2-motors.24290/

It was soon obvious to her that she was getting nowhere fast with her research and needed more expertise than I could provide, so she emailed a number of dealers with her criteria. 50 Cycles were very quickly on the phone to her, their first gambit trying to flog her an Impulse 2 motored bike, a motor that they are well aware has design issues, and they must have spent many hours completing warranty work on them. She declined their kind offer and mentioned that she was well aware of the motor’s reputation, via this forum, which didn’t seem to go down very well. In fact it went down very badly! They offered another bike instead, which she seemed interested in.

I had a conversation with her later about the ethical standards of any business that will try to sell you something that they know has a design flaw, and whether that is the sort of business that you want to deal with, especially if you lived a long way from that business, and any warranty claims would be difficult and costly for you. I am well aware that companies are in business to make a profit, but knowingly selling a product that could damage your reputation seems very short-sighted, especially in this age where information and reviews are so easily found. Anyone in business who doesn’t know that reputations are hard won and easily lost really shouldn’t be in business.

With a budget of c.£3,000 she should be able to get something decent and reliable, and when she mentioned Riese and Muller it was somewhat heart-warming, even if it was up to £2,000 above the budget. They have an excellent reputation as far as I am aware. The difficulty will be getting something that she can lift up the steps to the block of properties, one in which she lives. I still think that a Moulton might not be a bad idea for her, especially if we co-ordinate the use of my trailer.
 
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Deleted member 4366

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All ebikes get small problems from time to time. Some get more significant ones. I would have thought that where you are, returning a bike to a dealer would be a big problem. For me, that would rule out any that might get a software issue, which can't be fixed yourself, like Bosch, Kalkhoff, Bionx, any bike that uses CANbus or anything like that.

The Chinese bikes are modular and all the components are cheap and readily available, and most important of all can be fixed by yourself. In that respect, I'd convert any bike she likes or already has, with a standard Chinese hub-motor kit. She could buy 6 kits or that money, which should keep her going forever. With a kit, you have the option of legally fitting a throttle, which can be a great help when you're hampered by shopping or anything else..

Having converted one bike, I would have thought that would be your first choice.
 

Templogin

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May 15, 2014
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@Danidl

Glad you enjoyed the insight into Shetland. There is a big problem with the youngsters drinking up here, but that is probably much the same anywhere these days. A few months ago I was on the pointy end of attempted vandalism, when a drunk youngster, who had been partying in the local village hall (a big thing up here), or its environs put a broken bottle under my car tyre, broken end upwards. As it happened I had decided to scrap the car and go car-free, so I wouldn’t have been driving it anywhere, and was just waiting for the recovery truck to come and take it away. I spotted the bottle anyway when the copper came around as there were a number of complaints to the Police. Although this seems to be coming more common at this particular village hall, vandalism is a rarity up here.

I am interested to hear about the IPX standards that are being achieved. I am aware that Apple have moisture detectors in their phones, so I assume that they are not meeting the same IPX standards.

Although my camera is small, I like to be able to use it with a standard tripod fitting, a hole which phone cameras will not have, but I take on board their general improvement, but I still wouldn’t buy a mobile phone for its camera when I have a perfectly good camera. I am at a loss why people are still apologising for the poor quality of the phone pics, but as you said, the camera person has a lot to answer for.

As far as my GPS’ are concerned, I have two. One is designed for a motorbike. It is by Garmin, and I can’t remember the model, but shows a 3d road view on a screen. The other is an old one, a Garmin eTrex Camo. In Shetland you can probably get away with a lower standard GPS, I should say older really as I think Garmin are marvellous, especially when it comes to customer service. We have such a good view of the sky due to the lack of trees and relatively low buildings. As land is cheap here, except in Lerwick, you can have a decent size plot for not a great deal of money. Due to the conditions people generally build 1 or 1 1/2 storey houses. Two strorey houses are built, but they are certainly a novelty outside of Leriwck, where buildings shelter each other depending on the prevailing winds. So GPS speed is largely irrelevant to me. I don’t need to be anywhere in a hurry.

I have TuneIn Radio Pro on iOS, but it is rarely used, but is a great little tool.

I will take your word for the quality of the top end screens Dan.

@d8veh

I am not sure of the value of having a map downloaded to your phone if once you start to use it there is no GSM signal to operate the GPS as would often be the case up here.

I am heartened to hear that modern phones allow you to use the GPS all day. My eBike can power USB items, but only with the eBike functionality switched off. I have power packs of numerous sizes, but even the largest one (Powertraveller PowerGorilla 21,000mAh) would struggle to charge a mobile phone running a GPS daily for 2 weeks. The Galaxy S7 Edge has a 3600 mAh. Assuming a flat battery each day, 3,600mAh x 14 is 50,400mAh. Of course I expect you to counter with the phone battery wouldn’t be flat, but I haven’t included normal losses in charging, but perhaps you are talking about 2 working weeks?

@D8ve

I never came across the Pye Pegasus handbags, but have vague memories of using the Talking Brooch, which I believe was made by Pye, when I was wearing the green suit.
 

Templogin

Pedelecer
May 15, 2014
117
88
63
All ebikes get small problems from time to time. Some get more significant ones. I would have thought that where you are, returning a bike to a dealer would be a big problem. For me, that would rule out any that might get a software issue, which can't be fixed yourself, like Bosch, Kalkhoff, Bionx, any bike that uses CANbus or anything like that.

The Chinese bikes are modular and all the components are cheap and readily available, and most important of all can be fixed by yourself. In that respect, I'd convert any bike she likes or already has, with a standard Chinese hub-motor kit. She could buy 6 kits or that money, which should keep her going forever. With a kit, you have the option of legally fitting a throttle, which can be a great help when you're hampered by shopping or anything else..

Having converted one bike, I would have thought that would be your first choice.
This is very useful. I will copy the other half into it.

Thanks
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,608
12,253
73
Ireland
The research cycle is starting again, but this time it is my other half. Having ridden the ARCC Moulton, and being blown away by it, and seeing how much it helps me crack along at a decent pace, which she can't match, she has decided that the time has come for her to have one. As I have said before, she is not keen on the Moulton, preferring larger wheels.

I wrote out a list of what she should look for, what and whom she should avoid, and she spent many hours going around in circles on the net, overwhelmed by the choice available. She would send me links or show me pictures of what she felt fitted the criteria. One downhill bike looked really nice, but was totally wrong on many counts for her daily cycle commutes to a job in the morning and another in the afternoon, trips to the supermarket, (she doesn’t own a car), trips with the recycling and cycle touring. One piece of advice that I gave her was that whatever she did she should not buy a bike with an Impulse 2 motor in it. There were too many experiences of failures reported on this fine forum.

See here - http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/ongoing-reliability-of-kalkhoff-focus-impulse-2-motors.24290/

It was soon obvious to her that she was getting nowhere fast with her research and needed more expertise than I could provide, so she emailed a number of dealers with her criteria. 50 Cycles were very quickly on the phone to her, their first gambit trying to flog her an Impulse 2 motored bike, a motor that they are well aware has design issues, and they must have spent many hours completing warranty work on them. She declined their kind offer and mentioned that she was well aware of the motor’s reputation, via this forum, which didn’t seem to go down very well. In fact it went down very badly! They offered another bike instead, which she seemed interested in.

I had a conversation with her later about the ethical standards of any business that will try to sell you something that they know has a design flaw, and whether that is the sort of business that you want to deal with, especially if you lived a long way from that business, and any warranty claims would be difficult and costly for you. I am well aware that companies are in business to make a profit, but knowingly selling a product that could damage your reputation seems very short-sighted, especially in this age where information and reviews are so easily found. Anyone in business who doesn’t know that reputations are hard won and easily lost really shouldn’t be in business.

With a budget of c.£3,000 she should be able to get something decent and reliable, and when she mentioned Riese and Muller it was somewhat heart-warming, even if it was up to £2,000 above the budget. They have an excellent reputation as far as I am aware. The difficulty will be getting something that she can lift up the steps to the block of properties, one in which she lives. I still think that a Moulton might not be a bad idea for her, especially if we co-ordinate the use of my trailer.


Getting something to lift up the steps is a bit of a killer... But if theft is not a problem , as you indicated in previous emails, why does it need to be indoors. I would suggest her looking at the Raleigh Motus with 26 inch wheels I would not suggest the larger 700 wheels. Bang on budget and a very nice machine in my opinion. If the battery and display are removed and charged indoors a third of the value is then safe , the bike itself is very robust and with these items missing unlikely to be stolen.
 

Templogin

Pedelecer
May 15, 2014
117
88
63
Theft isn't the concern, it's the deterioration. The salt air eats things here! The shed is also upstairs!
 

Retyred1

Pedelecer
Oct 16, 2016
42
30
NZ
Unless you're a Luddite, of course smartphones are the way, I'm old and retired but I embrace all this modern technology (which ebikes are also remember). No way is carting around several devices more efficient than having everything on a smartphone. I'm also a keen photographer and I challenge anyone who says that photos taken on the latest smartphones are not as high quality as the normal mid to high range camera. Burying your head in the sand if you think not.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,608
12,253
73
Ireland
Theft isn't the concern, it's the deterioration. The salt air eats things here! The shed is also upstairs!
I live about 150m from the sea ,well when the tide is in, otherwise 1500m granted the wind is not as high here but we do get storm's and Easterly . The Motus is aluminium frame, brakes are a plastic material, wheels are either aluminium or stainless steel .Not much to rust... And I am not employed by Raleigh!
I have a set of aluminium chairs outside for 8 years without deterioration.
 

D8ve

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2013
2,142
1,294
Bristol
Unless you're a Luddite, of course smartphones are the way, I'm old and retired but I embrace all this modern technology (which ebikes are also remember). No way is carting around several devices more efficient than having everything on a smartphone. I'm also a keen photographer and I challenge anyone who says that photos taken on the latest smartphones are not as high quality as the normal mid to high range camera. Burying your head in the sand if you think not.
So a modern smart phone has an F4 lens with a 15 times optical zoom
And a 35mm sensor. That gives very high resolution images from quite a long way away even in relatively low light.
The sensor in a smart phone may have 30 million pixels but the focused image is so poor in contrast. Or maybe I'm a Luddite :oops:
 
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