are the newer crank motors different to the earlier models ?

[dmcgoldrick]

have seen some comments on recent threads which suggest the newer crank motors are different to the earlier ones in how they behave on uphill......

here is a detailed study from 2009......

e-Bike Theory | The Prospectory

perhaps the owners of the latest crank motors could give their experience in terms of cadence and gear selection on the newer models.....compared with the earlier panasonic motors mentioned in this report.......


regards

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The newer 36v ones are much more powerful and don't need any special technique. I just jumped on and they rode just like a hub-motored bike. Tonaro is slightly different because it's eay to max out the motor rpm. You have to change gear to get going again. Haven't tried the new TCM motor yet due to being trumped to review one by Old_Dave, while I was helping Alex with his bike.

 

[Old_Dave]

Trumped .. nooooooooooooo not yet, lol

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Trumped .. nooooooooooooo not yet, lol

Here's the evidence m'lud
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/14055-woosh-zephyr-cd-review-anyone.html#post172707
And to think I even offered you first go. Where's my Christmas list. I need to cross a couple of names off.

 

[Old_Dave]

Do what you like, lol... But you are not aware of more recent events


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[103Alex1]

due to being trumped to review one by Old_Dave, while I was helping Alex with his bike.

Ouch !!! A case of "Et tu, Brute?"

 

[Old_Dave]

But all in the best of taste


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[103Alex1]

But all in the best of taste


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To quote Peter Sellers "Just think of me as a kindly old man who has only your best interests at heart" ...

 

[Old_Dave]

That sums it up pretty well Neddy.

Turn the knob on your side..... But I haven't got a knob on my side


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[Deleted member 4366]

But you are not aware of more recent events


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How to keep a sucker in suspense.
Go on. Enlighten me and maybe I'll press"Ctrl" + "z" on my Xmas list.

 

[Old_Dave]

Lol, far be for me to preempt the actions of others, but I would assume that some time in the very near future your pm box will contain news ( that's assuming it's not full, lol)


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[103Alex1]

How to keep a sucker in suspense.

It's one of Old_Dave's specialities - along with posting photos of solutions with no links as to how to identify what they are and where you get 'em

 

[Old_Dave]

It's one of Old_Dave's specialities - along with posting photos of solutions with no links as to how to identify what they are and where you get 'em

Indeed so, the philosophy is... Here's a hint, now work it out, some times self learning sticks in the mind better than just providing the answer ( but I only do it when I'm sure that a person is capable of working it out)


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[103Alex1]

Indeed so, the philosophy is... Here's a hint, now work it out, some times self learning sticks in the mind better than just providing the answer ( but I only do it when I'm sure that a person is capable of working it out)

But .... it helps explain why some things took a month to work out !!!

 

[Blew it]

perhaps the owners of the latest crank motors could give their experience in terms of cadence and gear selection on the newer models.....compared with the earlier panasonic motors mentioned in this report.......

There is a difference in the 26v Panasonic system depending on its year of manufacture. Pre-2010 systems were configured for a maximum assisted cadence of 40 rpm, there was no point in spinning the pedals above this. From early 2010 onwards, the firmware was modified to allow assistance up to a cadence of 72 rpm. One of my machines is fitted with this uprated system, and therefore these thoughts relate to that version.

Also in the stable, a machine powered by the 2012 version of the Bosch drive. This is fitted with the pre-simplification HMI consul offering three power levels in four cadence related modes. In "speed" mode, assistance continues up to a cadence of 110 rpm.

With regard to the two systems above, at low to medium cadence, the assistance is delivered in distinct "pulses". As the pedal rpm increases up to the maximum for each system, the "pulses" blend into a smooth and continous stream of assistance. Think of it this way, the more power pulses per revolution of the back wheel, the greater the hill climbing ability. This also applies to the rate of acceleration on the flat. As you can see, if the rider can manage a sustainable high cadence of around 70 rpm, the machine will climb in a much more able way.

The common feature of both pure pedelec systems mentioned above is the torque sensor incorporated into the pedal crank shaft. The Tonaro system is different in having a chainwheel rotation sensor. On this system, assistance is always delivered in a constant stream of power and is not related to cadence.

Whilst I have no personal knowledge of the Sirocco CD system (yet ), I suspect the assistance will be delivered in a similar fashion to the Tonaro.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

There is a difference in the 26v Panasonic system depending on its year of manufacture. Pre-2010 systems were configured for a maximum assisted cadence of 40 rpm, there was no point in spinning the pedals above this. From early 2010 onwards, the firmware was modified to allow assistance up to a cadence of 72 rpm. One of my machines is fitted with this uprated system, and therefore these thoughts relate to that version

Also in the stable, a machine powered by the 2012 version of the Bosch drive. This is fitted with the pre-simplification HMI consul offering three power levels in four cadence related modes. In "speed" mode, assistance continues up to a cadence of 110 rpm.

With regard to the two systems above, at low to medium cadence, the assistance is delivered in distinct "pulses". As the pedal rpm increases up to the maximum for each system, the "pulses" blend into a smooth and continous stream of assistance. Think of it this way, the more power pulses per revolution of the back wheel, the greater the hill climbing ability. This also applies to the rate of acceleration on the flat. As you can see, if the rider can manage a sustainable high cadence of around 70 rpm, the machine will climb in a much more able way.

The common feature of both pure pedelec systems mentioned above is the torque sensor incorporated into the pedal crank shaft. The Tonaro system is different in having a chainwheel rotation sensor. On this system, assistance is always delivered in a constant stream of power and is not related to cadence.

Whilst I have no personal knowledge of the Sirocco CD system (yet ), I suspect the assistance will be delivered in a similar fashion to the Tonaro.

thanks for that detailed explanation........it would appear that on uphill climbs, newer cranks now behave like hub bikes in relation to selecting easy gear and as high a cadence as possible to get optimum use of the motor.
what amount of extra torque and how does the crank motor generate the extra torque which gives the improved performance over hub motors on the uphill climbs as is widely claimed for the crank motors....?
regards

 

[flecc]

The way the earlier Panasonic unit performed was largely due to it being designed to conform to the very restrictive Japanese e-bike law. With only Giant and BikeTec using it outside of Japan, no effort was made to alter it to suit the export market.

The second redesigned unit was intended to be sold to bike makers everywhere, which gradually resulted in the series of changes that Blew it details to suit those international makers' and market requirements.

what amount of extra torque and how does the crank motor generate the extra torque which gives the improved performance over hub motors on the uphill climbs as is widely claimed for the crank motors....?
regards

The extra torque results from the motor driving through the bike's gearing. When the gear ratio is changed by the rider to give half a given speed, the torque is doubled. Similar can apply to hub motors. If a 20" wheel hub motor is put in a 27" wheel to give higher road speed, the torque is reduced and hill climbing compromised. If a 27" wheel motor is put in a 20" wheel to give a low speed, the torque is increased and hill climbing ability increased, both of these cases being gearing changes. The equivalent in cars is the provision of a gear box, low gears for climbing and high gears for speed.
.

 

[mike killay]

Must add my tuppence worth in defence of the Tonaro system which I consider to be the best.
This system does not have any torque sensor, simply a magnet ring on the crank that tells the controller if the crank is turning. On the handlebar is a 3 position switch, low, medium and full assistance. No attempt is made to electronically vary the amount of assistance according to the cadence. Consequently, for the less able and the geriatric such as myself, full power is always available at the turn of the throttle or the crank. This benefit is often under estimated!

 

[Blew it]

Must add my tuppence worth in defence of the Tonaro system which I consider to be the best.

....but nowhere did I attack the Tonaro system, I was simply using it as an example of how the power delivery characteristics of torque sensor systems differ from those using rotation sensors.

I'm fully aware of the attributes of the Tonaro system, I own one......remember?

 

[flecc]

....but nowhere did I attack the Tonaro system, I was simply using it as an example of how the power delivery characteristics of torque sensor systems differ from those using rotation sensors.

I'm fully aware of the attributes of the Tonaro system, I own one......remember?

Tonaro owners are notoriously sensitive, just mentioning Tonaro puts them into attack mode!