are the newer crank motors different to the earlier models ?

[Kudoscycles]

Must add my tuppence worth in defence of the Tonaro system which I consider to be the best.
This system does not have any torque sensor, simply a magnet ring on the crank that tells the controller if the crank is turning. On the handlebar is a 3 position switch, low, medium and full assistance. No attempt is made to electronically vary the amount of assistance according to the cadence. Consequently, for the less able and the geriatric such as myself, full power is always available at the turn of the throttle or the crank. This benefit is often under estimated!

To my knowledge all of the current crop of crank drives out of Asia are purely speed sensor,no attempt has been made to install a torque sensor. As you say,the simplicity of the speed sensor is often what people want,the torque sensor can often be considered too clever.
It was interesting at the London Show that 40% of people prefered the torque sensor on the Arriba(hub drive) and 60% prefered the speed sensor on the Ibex(crank drive) or Tornado (hub drive). On a lazy day I think I prefer the Ibex and Tornado,but sometimes the Arriba just feels more natural.
KudosDave

 

[Jimod]

To my knowledge all of the current crop of crank drives out of Asia are purely speed sensor,no attempt has been made to install a torque sensor. As you say,the simplicity of the speed sensor is often what people want,the torque sensor can often be considered too clever.
It was interesting at the London Show that 40% of people prefered the torque sensor on the Arriba(hub drive) and 60% prefered the speed sensor on the Ibex(crank drive) or Tornado (hub drive). On a lazy day I think I prefer the Ibex and Tornado,but sometimes the Arriba just feels more natural.
KudosDave

This post has cheered me up as I had it in my head that all your new sports bikes had a Torque sensor. I'm well documented on here as being in the simple pedal sensor camp. Some days it's good to know the bike can do most of the work and bring me home.

 

[flecc]

On a lazy day I think I prefer the Ibex and Tornado,but sometimes the Arriba just feels more natural.
KudosDave

When cycling is secondary to what I'm doing, for example on an ambling ride in the country with my attention on the surrounding things other than cycling, I prefer a torque sensor's simplicity. With that I just pedal as on an unpowered bike and the electric aspect looks after itself

When the e-biking itself is the main objective, a throttle controlled e-bike comes into it's own more and I'm happy to have the additional input. I don't think of that as cycling in the real sense though, it's more like having a very low powered motorbike.

 

[mike killay]

Blew it and Flecc,
Apologies.
I know that neither of you attacked Tonaros, I just feel that the torque sensor is so wrong.
Then perhaps that is because I live in a very hilly place and need all the power output possible for as little muscle as possible. Perhaps it's my age!

 

[funkylyn]

Blew it and Flecc,
Apologies.
I know that neither of you attacked Tonaros, I just feel that the torque sensor is so wrong.
Then perhaps that is because I live in a very hilly place and need all the power output possible for as little muscle as possible. Perhaps it's my age!

Mike, I think all of us Tonaro owners are very protective towards the marque....probably due to the enormous amount of unnecessary and unjustified flack from certain members that we no longer have to endure........

Lynda

 

[AlMel]

To each their own! What’s sad is when others decide for us. Reading this thread and others I’ve been confused about all this chat about throttle, because I’ve seen none around here. Is it because throttles don’t fall into the interpretation of what is a pedelec elsewhere in Europe? I’m not sure and perhaps the more informed here might correct me if I’m wrong.

If it’s the case, I wonder where the harm is in allowing those who want it, the option of a wholly motorised push to 25 km/h. I expect I’ll need it one day. Till then though, whilst personally preferring just having an assisted bicycle which for me the Bosch drive provides perfectly satisfatorily, I'd be delighted to see any other safe and eco-friendly contraption on the roads and paths around here.

 

[jackhandy]

To each their own! What’s sad is when others decide for us. I'd be delighted to see any other safe and eco-friendly contraption on the roads and paths around here.

Well said, that man!

I have 2 bikes; a front-hub-drive for road & trail & chain-drive bouncer for offroad & trail:

Both have pas & throttle, and I find I use almost 100% pas on road/trail & similar ammount throttle offroad.

I think it's a very personal thing - But I'm glad I have the choice.

It'll be interesting to try the various available systems at the Eden ebike event in April. (Could be seriously wallet-slimming).

 

[flecc]

To each their own! What’s sad is when others decide for us. Reading this thread and others I’ve been confused about all this chat about throttle, because I’ve seen none around here. Is it because throttles don’t fall into the interpretation of what is a pedelec elsewhere in Europe? I’m not sure and perhaps the more informed here might correct me if I’m wrong.

If it’s the case, I wonder where the harm is in allowing those who want it, the option of a wholly motorised push to 25 km/h. I expect I’ll need it one day. Till then though, whilst personally preferring just having an assisted bicycle which for me the Bosch drive provides perfectly satisfatorily, I'd be delighted to see any other safe and eco-friendly contraption on the roads and paths around here.

The EU law doesn't allow for independently acting throttles, i.e. power without pedalling, since they want to ensure that e-bikes remain bicycles and don't become unregistered motor vehicles. The EU bikes are therefore called pedelecs (electric only with pedalling) The old UK law does allow throttles without pedalling, but with only 200 watts rather than 250 watts. Strictly speaking these are e-bikes (electric bikes). That UK law is due to be replaced shortly by something like the EU law, but possibly still with independent throttles. The change is planned for 2016.

 

[Old_Dave]

but possibly still with independent throttles. The change is planned for 2016.

And with grandfather rights for things that were 'legal' before the change

The old UK law

Which is still in force... kinda

Its all a mess, carry on regardless

 

[flecc]

Blew it and Flecc,
Apologies.
I know that neither of you attacked Tonaros, I just feel that the torque sensor is so wrong.
Then perhaps that is because I live in a very hilly place and need all the power output possible for as little muscle as possible. Perhaps it's my age!

No apologies necessary Mike. I also live in a very hilly area with some extremely steep hills and all my e-bike ownership after 67 years of age, but I like both systems and owned both types of e-bike together for a long time, only eventually reducing that to one for space reasons.

I think the feeling that torque sensors are wrong is mostly because of thinking in motor vehicle terms, and in motor vehicle terms they are wrong, since less pedal input should allow more power to compensate.

But in cycling terms torque sensors are absolutely right, since when cycling, more pedal input equals more power and higher performance. Because legislators are anxious to keep e-bikes as close to bicycles as possible and avoid them becoming unregistered motor vehicles, clearly pedal input only to get power is right. So torque sensors are the best way to mimic the rider input expectations when normally cycling, more rider input resulting in more power output and correspondingly more performance.

As disagreeable as it might be to many in here, those who want the opposite are really potential customers for the registered moped market, since in truth they want a motor vehicle.

 

[Kudoscycles]

No apologies necessary Mike. I also live in a very hilly area with some extremely steep hills and all my e-bike ownership after 67 years of age, but I like both systems and owned both types of e-bike together for a long time, only eventually reducing that to one for space reasons.

I think the feeling that torque sensors are wrong is mostly because of thinking in motor vehicle terms, and in motor vehicle terms they are wrong, since less pedal input should allow more power to compensate.

But in cycling terms torque sensors are absolutely right, since when cycling, more pedal input equals more power and higher performance. Because legislators are anxious to keep e-bikes as close to bicycles as possible and avoid them becoming unregistered motor vehicles, clearly pedal input only to get power is right. So torque sensors are the best way to mimic the rider input expectations when normally cycling, more rider input resulting in more power output and correspondingly more performance.

As disagreeable as it might be to many in here, those who want the opposite are really potential customers for the registered moped market, since in truth they want a motor vehicle.

Flecc....which is of course why we have to produce so many different styles and power systems,we all have different ideas as to what bike suits us. Its also why I think its a shame that I read sometimes on this forum that purchasers go only to their local lbs,ride one bike and buy it-there must be a more suitable bike if only it was more readily available to test.
KudosDave

 

[mike killay]

Flecc....which is of course why we have to produce so many different styles and power systems,we all have different ideas as to what bike suits us. Its also why I think its a shame that I read sometimes on this forum that purchasers go only to their local lbs,ride one bike and buy it-there must be a more suitable bike if only it was more readily available to test.
KudosDave

I think that in the UK this is a severe problem for the advancement of ebikes. I have come across a number of ebikers who did not know that there were such things as crank drives. Also, our local Halfods used to assure potential purchasers that a local Swansea bye-law prohibited bikes with throttles!
Until there are more bike shops dedicated to ebikes, these problems will continue.
However, perhaps there are far too many models?
Thinking back to Cyclemaster days which mirrored the present e bike scene, there was only a limited number of engines available, and each manufacturere only offered one model.
There were vast performance differences between say a 25cc Cyclemaster and a 50cc Powerpak, but ease of fitting etc. also came into account.
Limited choice has its advantages!!!!

 

[flecc]

However, perhaps there are far too many models?

Limited choice has its advantages!!!!

It certainly does, the profusion of models and types really confuse prospective buyers as newbie posts in here so often reveal.

Even as recently as when this forum began in 2006, the choice was much smaller. There was just one high performance e-bike for example, so 38% of the forum membership owned that eZee Torq model. Those who weren't interested in it's 22 mph assist speed but wanted a quality pedelec bought the Lafree which was the only available high-end crank drive. Truly a simpler life back then!

 

[Kudoscycles]

But its just too early to decide where the popular models are, natural wastage will,given time,reduce the number of options....Wisper and Kudos will next year focus on certain types,let the customer decide.
KudosDave

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I find myself agreeing with you far to often now-a-days Dave!!

The authorities in the UK actually are very much pro choice and understand the need in the market for bikes available with full throttle as well as the European style pedelec. European cycling organisations that are very much influenced by commercial interests especially in Germany, would prefer to limit customer choice. Happily the BA in the UK are very much more inclusive when it comes to cycling and simply want to see as many people out of cars and onto bicycles as possible, as long as bicycles are still bicycles and not mopeds.

The current availability in the UK of so many different styles, I believe is not such a bad thing at this stage of the market, although it does cause a certain amount of confusion amongst those new entering the market and makes it more difficult for suppliers to know what to stock. As soon as a strata has been defined, those of us who make a living supplying customers with what they prefer will hold product that best fulfills that need. I suspect that hub drives, crank drives, pedelec only and full throttle bikes will all have their place in the market as will mountain bikes, trekking bikes, city bikes, etc. The bicycle market has always been divers and interesting, I see no reason why the electric bike market should not be the same.

All the best

David