Battery Guarantees

[tillson]

I have just seen the enormous 650 Wh battery from the FreeGo Eagle in atob magazine. A two year guarantee and a replacement cost of only £250 makes it very eye-catching indeed.

I suppose that the level of confidence in the guarantee being honoured is directly proportional any confidence that the company will still be in business in two years time.

Since the battery does represent a huge chunk of an ebike's total cost, it make this bike seem attractive. I'm sure that some of the substandard components could be replaced, making it a half decent bike.

 

[Old Timer]

Going on from that, I can`t understand why someone hasn`t come forward as a company to regenerate our old batteries. Obviously I can`t know for sure but because it`s beyond most of us to do it I think we are (to a certain extent) being ripped off.

Perhaps someone can explain why they are so expensive, is it the chemicals or maybe that the market(in comparison to lets say AA batteries for domestic use) is quite small?

 

[tillson]

I think there is an element of us all being, " conditioned" to paying these prices. If they could get away with it, a manufacturer would happily see you pay £1000+ for your battery.

You are right, a box of chemicals can only cost so much and as the battery in atob illustrates, big batteries with long guarantees at a more realistic price are possible.

 

[flecc]

I suppose that the level of confidence in the guarantee being honoured is directly proportional any confidence that the company will still be in business in two years time.

Exactly! I can recall a number of companies giving long warranties but quickly changing them when the truth came out. Sustain Cycles when they launched for example, a two year battery warranty, quickly changed to one year and then any mention of warranty disappearing.

However, that cheap Chinese bike is probably a good buy even if the battery does give out in a year or so, just so long as replacements will be available.
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[Alex728]

However, that cheap Chinese bike is probably a good buy even if the battery does give out in a year or so, just so long as replacements will be available.
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at one time wasn't one of the plus points of the Synergie Mistral the low cost of replacement batteries?

Even a "cannier Scot" from Alien (Jim or Bob) says on the website they won't sell batteries on their own to those without Alien bikes or kits as people buyng the batteries to use with competitors equipment was depleting the supply for more loyal customers bikes..

Q. Why don't you list 24v and 36v batteries in your shop?

A. Too many people were buying cheap kits from China without batteries then expecting me to supply and support them with Li-Ion units. I've decided that all my battery stocks will now be solely for customer support.

I expect in the future there could even be a UK industry to make e-bike batteries (although they should be treated with respect due to the high current, they seem to require less specialised handling/skills than working on a controller) but there must be a regulatory and civil liability minefield about selling them commercially, there's enough power in them to set a fair old blaze if things go pear-shaped, and where most are mounted, experimenters might literally have to "watch their backs!"

 

[flecc]

Going on from that, I can`t understand why someone hasn`t come forward as a company to regenerate our old batteries. Obviously I can`t know for sure but because it`s beyond most of us to do it I think we are (to a certain extent) being ripped off.

I've lost count of how many times I've answered these two questions. Since lithium battery cells are constantly being developed and changing all the time, the BMS circuits often change with them. It would be impossible to supply or stock each and every generation of cells for recelling, and mistakes with lithium can be lethal. Changing both cells and BMS to a latest matched type would be viable, but would cost more than a new battery since only the cheap case would be retained and a recelling operative would be less efficient than the original producer. Therefore recelling lithium is very unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. The companies aren't blocking this or ripping anyone off, the same manufacturers were very happy to make provision for it when it was possible with NiCad and NiMh. It's just not viable with lithium at present.

Perhaps someone can explain why they are so expensive, is it the chemicals or maybe that the market(in comparison to lets say AA batteries for domestic use) is quite small?

It's the high research costs that the top battery companies carry out to produce the latest battery types. As with the drug companies, these costs have to be recovered if the companies are not to go broke. The cheap battery producers are using yesterday's technologies copied from the previous research of the top companies, so have no background costs to recover. The small market size does make matters worse but it affects all producers of course, so not relevant to the price differentials.

Remember also the effect of percentage additions. The top battery with a £100 differential ex manufacture will have that differential greatly expanded once the costs of manufacturer profit margin, transit insurance, import duties, importer/seller margin and VAT are all added as percentages. This is common to all trading of course, and unavoidable while we finance business in the way we do.
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[Old Timer]

I've lost count of how many times I've answered these two questions. Since lithium battery cells are constantly being developed and changing all the time, the BMS circuits often change with them. It would be impossible to supply or stock each and every generation of cells for recelling, and mistakes with lithium can be lethal. Changing both cells and BMS to a latest matched type would be viable, but would cost more than a new battery since only the cheap case would be retained and a recelling operative would be less efficient than the original producer. Therefore recelling lithium is very unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. The companies aren't blocking this or ripping anyone off, the same manufacturers were very happy to make provision for it when it was possible with NiCad and NiMh. It's just not viable with lithium at present.



It's the high research costs that the top battery companies carry out to produce the latest battery types. As with the drug companies, these costs have to be recovered if the companies are not to go broke. The cheap battery producers are using yesterday's technologies copied from the previous research of the top companies, so have no background costs to recover. The small market size does make matters worse but it affects all producers of course, so not relevant to the price differentials.

Remember also the effect of percentage additions. The top battery with a £100 differential ex manufacture will have that differential greatly expanded once the costs of manufacturer profit margin, transit insurance, import duties, importer/seller margin and VAT are all added as percentages. This is common to all trading of course, and unavoidable while we finance business in the way we do.
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Thanks Tony, explains it more clearly and yes the safety factor is something I over looked.

Dave

 

[FrankieXu]

Making of electric battery involves 2 parties for most of cases.

1, who supply the cells,

2 who assemble the cells to make it either 36V, 24V etc whatever conpacity is out there.

The warranty of the battery in most cases is from the second party. It means with the right selection of cells to make a battery set, right setups and right controlling logic, it should continue charging and discharge for minimum 2 years.

However, for the first party, if the battery cells are supplied by a well-known manufacturer, it should maintain its life-span and capacity drop graph very close to the lab test data on them and they go by number of charging cycles, not time. Of course that will also depend on the usage, way of charging and the control logic. So 80% after two years i think the battery is considered very well maintained and protected and it should not be too hard to achieve. (depending on the number of charging cycles of course, if the battery is being charged many times and in constant usage, you would be lucky if it remains 80% capacity after 2 years in my opinion)

 

[dan]

Making of electric battery involves 2 parties for most of cases.

1, who supply the cells,

2 who assemble the cells to make it either 36V, 24V etc whatever conpacity is out there.

The warranty of the battery in most cases is from the second party. It means with the right selection of cells to make a battery set, right setups and right controlling logic, it should continue charging and discharge for minimum 2 years.

However, for the first party, if the battery cells are supplied by a well-known manufacturer, it should maintain its life-span and capacity drop graph very close to the lab test data on them and they go by number of charging cycles, not time. Of course that will also depend on the usage, way of charging and the control logic. So 80% after two years i think the battery is considered very well maintained and protected and it should not be too hard to achieve. (depending on the number of charging cycles of course, if the battery is being charged many times and in constant usage, you would be lucky if it remains 80% capacity after 2 years in my opinion)

Can I ask why you only give 6 months warrantee on your battery pack? I am sure you must have a logical reason.

 

[FrankieXu]

Can I ask why you only give 6 months warrantee on your battery pack? I am sure you must have a logical reason.

Hi Dan, The website was not updated properly, the term was drawn when we were selling Lead-acid electric scooters and did not focus ourselves on designing our own electric bike. Of course at that time, we are not very familiar with Lithium-ion battery either and just followed what other makers have been offering.

Lithium-ion batteries have higher number of charging cycles.

Keep looking out on our site, we are launching our new model in May and the website will be updated with our updated warranty terms for lithium-ion batteries.

We will be giving 1 year on the battery cover as standard with our new bikes and battery cover extended for another year with a small cost (it would be very reasonable I assure you). Just to save everyone in negotiations on whose fault is it for the battery failure within 2 years, which would be very unlikely.

I think it is more important to have a well-balanced warranty terms than a enticing one just to make a sale. We've had enough of that, don't you think.

Anyway, Dan, let me know your opinion

 

[flecc]

We will be giving 1 year on the battery cover as standard with our new bikes and battery cover extended for another year with a small cost (it would be very reasonable I assure you). Just to save everyone in negotiations on whose fault is it for the battery failure within 2 years, which would be very unlikely.

I think it is more important to have a well-balanced warranty terms than a enticing one just to make a sale. We have had enough of it, don't you think.

Pending Dan's reply, I think that is sensible for the average lithium battery. To have a two year warranty which isn't going to risk involving a high level of claims means a high degree of software imposed restraint on current usage, preferably coupled with large capacity and high manufacturing standards. That all costs extra money which is reflected in the final battery price.

A £250 battery that lasts just about 18 months is cheaper than a £500 one that limps barely beyond two years, and if e-bikes are to really take off in the UK, we do need cheaper batteries.
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[alex_h]

yes i agree, a two year lasting batter for £250 is always better than the £500 one lasting barely 2 years. Batteries should be more available to customers and spares that cost more then £500 is a simply rip off, sorry. For £500 we can get a new bike.

it's like ink cartdrgides, we all hate them don't we?

 

[dan]

Pending Dan's reply, I think that is sensible for the average lithium battery. To have a two year warranty which isn't going to risk involving a high level of claims means a high degree of software imposed restraint on current usage, preferably coupled with large capacity and high manufacturing standards. That all costs extra money which is reflected in the final battery price.

A £250 battery that lasts just about 18 months is cheaper than a £500 one that limps barely beyond two years, and if e-bikes are to really take off in the UK, we do need cheaper batteries.
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I am sure a lot of people wont agree with me, but if the weight of your bike is not an issue, i.e you are not lifting it anyware just riding it, then there is still a good case for lead acid batteries.

A 36 volt 14 amp lead acid battery should cost around £100.00 to replace, and though warrantees are normaly 6 months, these batteries can last well over a year or more. My partner who uses her bike every day for work except for real bad weather days, and only about 8 miles per day has been using the current set of batteries (lead acid) for well over 18 months.

An equal lithium battery would be around 36 volt 10 amp, and cost from £250.00 and up to £400.00, it would be hard pressed to equal the cost benefits of lead acid over shorter trips.

Before you all jump up and batter me, on long trips , say a person using the bike to travel 15 miles + every day, a lithium battery with a 2 year warrantee would probable win out.

 

[Old Timer]

I am sure a lot of people wont agree with me, but if the weight of your bike is not an issue, i.e you are not lifting it anyware just riding it, then there is still a good case for lead acid batteries.

A 36 volt 14 amp lead acid battery should cost around £100.00 to replace, and though warrantees are normaly 6 months, these batteries can last well over a year or more. My partner who uses her bike every day for work except for real bad weather days, and only about 8 miles per day has been using the current set of batteries (lead acid) for well over 18 months.

An equal lithium battery would be around 36 volt 10 amp, and cost from £250.00 and up to £400.00, it would be hard pressed to equal the cost benefits of lead acid over shorter trips.

Before you all jump up and batter me, on long trips , say a person using the bike to travel 15 miles + every day, a lithium battery with a 2 year warrantee would probable win out.

Hiya Dan

Not flaming you.

I did the exercise and pricing up + weight of a decent set of sla batteries and they are certainly a lot cheaper but weight wise(for a decent range) they were getting up towards the weight of my TDi car battery.I renewed that recently and pulled my back lifting it in place.

Just recently my wife and I went our for a ride and I carried a spare battery in a bag on my rear rack that I have made up patch leads for either bike, we stopped for a moment and I put my bike on it`s side stand and being a windy day the bloody wind tipped my bike over because it was a bit top heavy which is more or less how sla batteries would have to be fitted.

If I were powering up something of 36v in a workshop then I`d use sla batteries no problem but to get a decent range on my bikes the weight would be the deciding factor for me.

 

[Straylight]

A £250 battery that lasts just about 18 months is cheaper than a £500 one that limps barely beyond two years, and if e-bikes are to really take off in the UK, we do need cheaper batteries.
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I know I've said this before, but there seems to be a real gap in the market for 3rd party battery packs, there could be a site selling them that has a clear compatibility chart for the popular makes of bike. As you can probably tell, I'm all for increased consumer choice, and the wide variety of individual applications for a given ebike model make simple capacity options unsatisfactory. By allowing, via a level of standardisation, alternate manufacturers to supply power packs that are "plug and play", would indeed increase the credibility, and sense of future proof security for a prospective customer IMO.

I also think that the apparent fragility of the mainly small businesses that produce/import these machines (with obvious exceptions), is another thing that may deter people from taking the plunge, particularly in our present economic situation.

 

[flecc]

I am sure a lot of people wont agree with me, but if the weight of your bike is not an issue, i.e you are not lifting it anyware just riding it, then there is still a good case for lead acid batteries.

I fully agree Dan, there's still a lot to be said for SLA, especially for the majority who do quite low mileage trips. When Powabyke clebrated their ten year anniversary recently, I remarked in here that someone could have run one throughout that period on SLA batteries for a cost similar to a single high end li-polymer battery today (£500+).
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[Alex728]

I know I've said this before, but there seems to be a real gap in the market for 3rd party battery packs, there could be a site selling them that has a clear compatibility chart for the popular makes of bike. As you can probably tell, I'm all for increased consumer choice, and the wide variety of individual applications for a given ebike model make simple capacity options unsatisfactory. By allowing, via a level of standardisation, alternate manufacturers to supply power packs that are "plug and play", would indeed increase the credibility, and sense of future proof security for a prospective customer IMO.

I also think that the apparent fragility of the mainly small businesses that produce/import these machines (with obvious exceptions), is another thing that may deter people from taking the plunge, particularly in our present economic situation.

Unfortunately I think there is another elephant in the room linked to exactly what you say in your second paragraph.

I expect many of the tech enthusiasts/engineers who run the British e-bike companies are understandably loath to admit this, but in all cases their businesses depend on securing investment - anything from overdrafts and remortgages on their personal property to other forms of long term debt financing.

Investors will want to see a profit forecast before they hand over any money, and I suspect the long-term revenue from the sale of replacement batteries must be figured into these forecasts.

its a harsh and competitive market and will only get more so, even the "big guys" have been burned - Powacycle made a loss in the previous half-year despite increased sales (which if this persists makes being in business with these products pointless!) and Powabyke went into administration - luckily bought out by another company but behind the positive spin there were words in their corporate statements that they needed to "reduce overheads".

Even today the batteries themselves aren't rocket science for someone wanting to make 3rd party models (as is done with batteries for laptops, cameras and phones) - people are already swapping over the guts of batteries to fix cheaper bikes - but copying the connection bits has obvious ethical/legal dilemma - and the OEMs will kick up real or even imagined safety issues with the use of third party batteries as they clearly will impact the bottom line - a lot of "small goverment/free enterprise" businessmen will quickly start running to health and safety nannies when competition hits them in the pocket!

I would still be wary of cheaper 3rd party batteries anyway unless subjected to proveable safety tests, having worked in the electronics industry and seen what low-voltage high current power can do if short circuited!

 

[Straylight]

I would still be wary of cheaper 3rd party batteries anyway unless subjected to provable safety tests, having worked in the electronics industry and seen what low-voltage high current power can do if short circuited!

Very true, but with today's prevalence of universal availability via the likes of ebay, I think consumers are becoming a lot more savvy when it comes to products that seem to good to be true with regard to price, especially with such items as batteries due to the high profile failures that have been in the mass media. I don't think many people would buy a large power pack without checking out the specs first, particularly when they may be very well sitting right above it whilst cycling .

With regard to guarantees, I take Frankie's point when he says that if a battery is going to have a connection failure, then it's likely to occur in the first six months of use, but this is only likely if the bike is regularly used. To circumvent this variable, the warranty could be based on Wh used, rather than time in service, through the inclusion of a data logger built into the BMS. This may be a bit impractical, but at least it would be fair to all.

 

[tangent]

I think there is still much to be said for NiMH batteries. I have no experience of Li batteries, other than use in laptops, phones etc, but NiMH bike batteries do seem substantially cheaper than Li and easier to work with. e.g. I recently bought a 24V 9Ah cell pack, made up of 20 D cells from component-shop.co.uk for £125 including delivery. I am still testing/running in, but according to my Turnigy, it is delivering at least 8Ah of usable energy with my Giant Twist. Above 7Ah is a bit feeble though.

The other advantage is NiMH do not appear to wear out when not being used!

 

[flecc]

I think there is still much to be said for NiMH batteries.

Again I agree as I did with Dan on SLAs. I very much regretted the speed of the change to lithium with NiMh abandoned far too quickly. Although NiMh cells are still obtainable, the best high discharge types are no longer made, only the shorter lived lower discharge rate types around now. I would have happily stuck to NiMh on my eZee bikes rather than the unreliable lithium, but with eZee unable to obtain cells with a discharge rate suitable for their powerful motors, that wasn't an option.
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