It's a shame that Bosch don't make the complete bike. Maybe then we might get the same warranty service as we do when we buy one of their washing machines, with an engineer coming round to fix it on your own premises. Perhaps they could train the same engineers to fix their ebike motors as well.
Bosch bearings
- Thread starter Artstu
- Start date
Service for other Bosch gadgets appears quite well thought out.
I imagine they must have considered integrating the ebikes somehow, but perhaps sales are too few to justify it.
http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/customer-service.html
http://www.bosch-garden.com/gb/en/garden-tools/service/index.jsp
I imagine they must have considered integrating the ebikes somehow, but perhaps sales are too few to justify it.
http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/customer-service.html
http://www.bosch-garden.com/gb/en/garden-tools/service/index.jsp
I thought the lesson of this thread was that they don't do it because it's a bike. Not a washing machine or a drill, and the bicycle trade has alway done it this way....
The only problem at the moment is that in some cases it takes too long to get spares from Bosch, and their service centre in Germany. I can't see any other issue? Except that some of you feel you should be able to deal with Bosch direct.
I really believe that if Bosch finally sort out a UK service centre, the UK customers will get a greater priority and a lot of the concerns in this thread will disappear, that service centre might even allow customer to contact them direct, that would be a good step for everyone (except them I suspect
). I'm off to EuroBike next week to discuss this with Bosch, and the Head of KTM world sales discussed the lack of UK service with them last week. So things are being pushed.In the mean time good Bosch dealers (and there are many) have shown that by holding selected stock of selected parts, they can support Bosch customers easily whether it be warranty or just service and repair. So I really don't think you have anything to worry about if you own a Bosch bike from any brand.
One thing I'm slightly concerned about is that there are Bosch dealers selling dongles that aren't telling customers that by using the dongle they are invalidating their warranty. This I think should be made more clear to all.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
The dongle shouldn't have any effect on the warranty. It doesn't change the power or speed of the motor in any way. The motor doesn't know or care what gear you're in. All the dongle does is allow the motor to continue spinning in a higher gear, just like it would in a lower one. The S-class bikes have exactly the same system with the same torque and same power, but with the speed limit set higher. They have a full warranty supported by Bosch.
Anyone that claims that the dongle should invalidate the warranty is trying to cop-out of their responsibilities. the only thing it affects is the brake and tyre wear.
Anyone that claims that the dongle should invalidate the warranty is trying to cop-out of their responsibilities. the only thing it affects is the brake and tyre wear.
whilst I might fully agree with you, or not. Its not for you or even I to decide.
The email I have from Bosch could not be more clear. I asked them a whole series of questions about warranty and UK support. Number 3, was about dongles.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 3) What are your thoughts on the use of dongle's to de-restrict the speed on the eBikes? Does this invalidate your warranty on the Bosch drive parts? –
Yes, when somebody is using a tuning part the warranty is invalid.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that could be more clear. Bosch will not warranty a bike that has had a Dongle fitted.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
I think you're attempting to quibble on the clear point. Anything that de-restricts the motor, is in Bosch's eyes a tuning part. I asked specifically about dongles.
Them calling them a tuning part is probably just a minor translation issue.
Using a dongle = no Bosch warranty.
This is the wording on the website:
The are various companies and individuals who offer a “tuning” or customized modification of Bosch eBike Systems, especially through the internet. As the original component manufacturer, Bosch eBike Systems strongly advises against using such products and services, or attempting to modify a Bosch eBike System yourself: there is a great risk of shortening your system’s service life, and of damaging both the drive unit and the bike. There is also the danger of negating the guarantee and warranty claims on the bike you purchased. In addition, improper treatment of the system will endanger your safety and that of other road users, risking accidents as a result of this tuning, as well as steep personal liability costs and even criminal prosecution. Therefore, Bosch eBike Systems calls upon all eBike riders and vendors to refrain from “tuning” products and services.
I think that is one of the main issues but not only Bosch. the other component manufacturers that are part of the bike's various warranty claim to be are also an issue. the time that they also take to even process items that reach them and the hassle and unecessary time to contact the relevant departments means that it is not just a Bosch issue. KTM need to do regular checks on lead times for the parts manufacturers they use for their bikes and check the dealers' concerns with such manufacturers rather than leave it all to the dealers. Does KTM review its own performance (including its chosen component manufacturers? ) by requesting regular feedback from them of their views for example rather than wait for issues to arise?
On the dongle issue perhaps Bosch may be referring to the original dongles that needed to be fitted inside the motor somehow? There are now ones that do not fit inside I believe and need no tampering with the motor.
I can understand Bosch invalidating warranty though in such cases although if they are doing exactly the same as the S oedelecs to same engine (technical stuff) then all Bosch are doing is protecting one class of more expensive pedelecs over cheaper ones I suppose and their features (bit like SLR cameras of the day.. Cheaper but identical model just had features disabled but they were still there!)
I can understand Bosch invalidating warranty though in such cases although if they are doing exactly the same as the S oedelecs to same engine (technical stuff) then all Bosch are doing is protecting one class of more expensive pedelecs over cheaper ones I suppose and their features (bit like SLR cameras of the day.. Cheaper but identical model just had features disabled but they were still there!)
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
It's like that guy with the road bike that needed two new bottom brackets inside 6 months. He was told that he was pedalling too hard. I guess that constitutes tuning too!.
I guess the moral of the storey is not to get a dongle with your bike. Instead get the Badass one, fit it yourself and don't tell anyone. If your motor packs up, remove the device and put the Bosch sensor back where it was, then you can get it fixed under warranty.
I guess the moral of the storey is not to get a dongle with your bike. Instead get the Badass one, fit it yourself and don't tell anyone. If your motor packs up, remove the device and put the Bosch sensor back where it was, then you can get it fixed under warranty.
Would fitting a dongle cause more wear on the motor over any given distance used? I assume that the dongle causes the motor to continue working beyond the normal cut point, so a motor with a dongle fitted does more work per mile than one without.
Is it fair to expect the manufacturer to under-wright this additional wear (a rhetorical question)?
Is it fair to expect the manufacturer to under-wright this additional wear (a rhetorical question)?
This depends on whether a rider normally pedals above the assist limit on a pedelec. For the many riders who can't without motor help, there will be no wear increase with a higher assist limit. That's because although the motor will be working at higher speeds than before when assisted, the cut in journey time and thus motor working time will balance that out.
Of course as d8veh says this isn't a tuning issue, but no doubt Bosch's lawyers would argue that anything that increases speed is.
.
The Bosch conditions say: "There is also the danger of negating the guarantee and warranty claims on the bike you purchased."
They use the word danger because they know that to legitimately reject a claim they would have to show the tuning/dongle caused the failure.
For example, a claim for, say, a rusty casing or water leak could not reasonably be rejected on the grounds the bike was dongled.
I'm not trying to reassure myself here, I've always thought bike warranties aren't up to much.
My view is I am on my own in the event of any breakdown.
If the warranty meets some or all of the cost, that is a bonus.
They use the word danger because they know that to legitimately reject a claim they would have to show the tuning/dongle caused the failure.
For example, a claim for, say, a rusty casing or water leak could not reasonably be rejected on the grounds the bike was dongled.
I'm not trying to reassure myself here, I've always thought bike warranties aren't up to much.
My view is I am on my own in the event of any breakdown.
If the warranty meets some or all of the cost, that is a bonus.
I would imagine that the wear rate would actually be worse on a standard unit. The lateral loading from the high pedal input above the cut out speed would be much more detrimental than that from the motor.
It was only when the battery went flat that I noticed the play, when soft pedalling with the help of the motor there was no play noticeable to me, however when having to exert a very high force to drag a loaded 26 kg bike up a hill with a flat battery the play was very evident.
It is clear to me that the bearing which has worn out simply isn't up to the job. The bike has covered around 4,200 miles and has climbed in the region of 250,000 feet.
I do not believe that the increased assist speed has increased this rate of wear in any way.
This not up to the job bearing is going to be a serious problem for all Bosch users in the not too distant future.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
It doesn't cause the motor to spin any faster. Without the dongle, the motor can max out in most of the gears. The motor will be spinning at the same speed and power as a dongled bike if going up a slight incline or going in to a headwind, but those that live in Norfolk with windy rides every day are not excluded from warranty are they? or is it like that bloke I mentioned above, who was accused of abusing his bike because his BBs failed?
As Artstu say's, you'll probably be pulling a higher gear with more help from the motor, so much less load on the BB bearings. If anything, the warranty should be doubled on the BB bearings when you have a dongle fitted.
If you buy a bike without warranties (for example, from some bankruptcy stock), how much discount would you expect or consider the warranties are worth? I reckon 35%-40% of the original purchase price is a fair valuation.
It's important to realise that manufacturer warranties, if offered, are effectively an insurance-backed product which act to reimburse dealers for parts and labour costs incurred in delivering the warranty. This is how it works in mature industries and there's no reason why it shouldn't work this way in the bike industry.
However, it is important to note that these warranties always contain a clause that they are "in addition to your statutory rights". Indeed, it is illegal for them to be otherwise.
Statutory rights are conferred by the Sale Of Goods Act (SOGA). If you paid for all or part of the cost of the bike on dealer finance or a credit card (CC), you have additional rights under the Consumer Credit Act (CCA), which makes the credit company jointly responsible. It's worth using credit for this reason alone.
Under SOGA, your contract is with the person or company to whom you hand your money, i.e. the dealer. SOGA states that goods supplied must be "fit for purpose" and "of satisfactory quality". Another point worth noting is that if an item breaks within 6 months of purchase, it will legally be deemed to have been faulty at the point of supply, unless the supplier can prove otherwise (in practice, difficult to impossible). From 6 months out to as long as 6 years, the law takes into account expected lifespan of the item, wear & tear, price paid, etc.
So, if your bike breaks down within 6 months and you haven't caused the breakage by using it outside its expected parameters or by modifying it, then the dealer has to offer redress in the form of repair, replacement or refund, irrespective of any other warranty which may apply. You as the customer have to give this dealer the opportunity do so, and he has to do so within a "reasonable time".
So, if the dealer can't fix the bike, either because he doesn't deal with the brand any more, or parts are unavailable, he can replace, refund, or offer you a loan bike until yours is fixed.
If he won't do any of these, then your best course of action is to send him a letter headed "Letter Before Action" stating the facts and asking him to remedy the situation within a "reasonable time", which you specify (14 days is often legally regarded as "reasonable"). If no response, or unsatisfactory response, then you can claim via Small Claims Court (SCC), which is straightforward (if the circumstances are straightforward) and inexpensive.
Exception is if you bought on credit, in which case you can claim the full amount back from the credit company, even if you only paid part of the cost on credit. This is usually faster than going via SCC. They reclaim from the dealer via chargeback. If the dealer has gone belly-up, then reclaiming in this way may be your only form of redress (the bike of course becomes the property of the finance company).
Sorry about the long post, but it appears that some on this forum have not taken advantage of their statutory rights, probably through not being aware of them.
Phil
However, it is important to note that these warranties always contain a clause that they are "in addition to your statutory rights". Indeed, it is illegal for them to be otherwise.
Statutory rights are conferred by the Sale Of Goods Act (SOGA). If you paid for all or part of the cost of the bike on dealer finance or a credit card (CC), you have additional rights under the Consumer Credit Act (CCA), which makes the credit company jointly responsible. It's worth using credit for this reason alone.
Under SOGA, your contract is with the person or company to whom you hand your money, i.e. the dealer. SOGA states that goods supplied must be "fit for purpose" and "of satisfactory quality". Another point worth noting is that if an item breaks within 6 months of purchase, it will legally be deemed to have been faulty at the point of supply, unless the supplier can prove otherwise (in practice, difficult to impossible). From 6 months out to as long as 6 years, the law takes into account expected lifespan of the item, wear & tear, price paid, etc.
So, if your bike breaks down within 6 months and you haven't caused the breakage by using it outside its expected parameters or by modifying it, then the dealer has to offer redress in the form of repair, replacement or refund, irrespective of any other warranty which may apply. You as the customer have to give this dealer the opportunity do so, and he has to do so within a "reasonable time".
So, if the dealer can't fix the bike, either because he doesn't deal with the brand any more, or parts are unavailable, he can replace, refund, or offer you a loan bike until yours is fixed.
If he won't do any of these, then your best course of action is to send him a letter headed "Letter Before Action" stating the facts and asking him to remedy the situation within a "reasonable time", which you specify (14 days is often legally regarded as "reasonable"). If no response, or unsatisfactory response, then you can claim via Small Claims Court (SCC), which is straightforward (if the circumstances are straightforward) and inexpensive.
Exception is if you bought on credit, in which case you can claim the full amount back from the credit company, even if you only paid part of the cost on credit. This is usually faster than going via SCC. They reclaim from the dealer via chargeback. If the dealer has gone belly-up, then reclaiming in this way may be your only form of redress (the bike of course becomes the property of the finance company).
Sorry about the long post, but it appears that some on this forum have not taken advantage of their statutory rights, probably through not being aware of them.
Phil
those reminders of legal redress are always useful for those who may not be aware. I don't get the impression that this is the issue in these cases. Personally I am aware of all of those laws and regulations.
the crux is the lack of support given to dealers through no fault of their own. The customer wants bike repaired, the dealer wants bike repaired and relations are extremely amicable but the parts are never there for the dealer or obstacles put in their way. This would have nothing to do with legal redress. Just two parties who want a job done but with the component parts manufacturers being the issue.
Also.. A time may be quoted to the dealer by component manufacturer but then this timeframe continually changes and different information given at different times by different people in these companies.
Also I note we have yet to note any dealer volunteering and noting that they would undertake repairs on say a Bosch pedelec if it was a. Not bought from them or b. Out of warranty. Although Col at KTm says this is what he expects there have been none on the forum saying they would, despite what Col says.
Does anybody know of any KTM dealer who takes in repairs for say hubs or Bosch motor / parts if the bike was not bought off them for a and b scenario?
the crux is the lack of support given to dealers through no fault of their own. The customer wants bike repaired, the dealer wants bike repaired and relations are extremely amicable but the parts are never there for the dealer or obstacles put in their way. This would have nothing to do with legal redress. Just two parties who want a job done but with the component parts manufacturers being the issue.
Also.. A time may be quoted to the dealer by component manufacturer but then this timeframe continually changes and different information given at different times by different people in these companies.
Also I note we have yet to note any dealer volunteering and noting that they would undertake repairs on say a Bosch pedelec if it was a. Not bought from them or b. Out of warranty. Although Col at KTm says this is what he expects there have been none on the forum saying they would, despite what Col says.
Does anybody know of any KTM dealer who takes in repairs for say hubs or Bosch motor / parts if the bike was not bought off them for a and b scenario?
Related Articles
-
MTF Enterprises announces acquisition of EMU Electric Bikes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Wisper 806T folding bike wins Which? ‘Best Buy’- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Sustrans calls for protected cycle lanes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Amazon launch their first UK e-cargo micromobility hub- Started by: Pedelecs
