Bosch Motor shutdown, Error 503, get you home only.

[Andy-Mat]

There seem to be plenty of people having problems with Chinese manufactured products on the forum as well. At the end of the day each to their own.

I read just about every post here, including all new topics, and the only way your comment might every become true for me personally, is if I have missed them.
So if you would be so kind as to post any and all links to those topics you are mentioning, supporting your thoughts, with regard to bikes of Chinese manufacture, I would be most grateful.
I am fully prepared to be wrong.
But even if true, Chinese bikes are still VERY CHEAP, are VERY easy to fault find, and VERY easy to repair or replace items if needed, from many different sources.
Bosch makes it extremely difficult for an owner of their products, to even get parts, also difficult for a LBS, even the ones selling Bosch products, apparently requiring that many parts are sent back to them for repair and replacement, at very high cost for the part, and weeks of waiting!
It was recently posted here on Pedelec, that an exchange Bosch motor, not only costs weeks of time waiting, but also 800 UK Pounds - HORRIFIC!
My last Chinese bike cost me just over 900 UK Pounds, including two batteries, many extras, delivery charges and import duties! I took delivery in 2017......Still very happy!
And as I pointed out, my Chinese bike, if it ever goes wrong, I can simply buy parts from the actual firm that supplies them, or even off ebay and other suppliers, as the parts are not talking digitally to each other and cutting motor power if I fart while riding, as Bosch apparently does!....
I am still at a loss as to why ANYONE buys Bosch products still today, as you would hope and expect at least, that the people on Pedelec and similar wanting to buy an e-bike, would do some simple market research before buying anything!
Not just for Bosch products.
So I am awaiting your list of Chinese Bike Failure topics as soon as you like.
Do remember, that Chinese manufacturers sell, in comparison to Bosch (also Chinese made parts apparently!) products, simply millions of them each year!
You may be shocked, but at a quick glance, I could not even see the name Bosch on the Wiki list of e-bike manufacturers, maybe Bosch hides under another name on that list, I simply do not know, but huge numbers they are not selling apparently!

List of electric bicycle brands and manufacturers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Andy

 

[Ocsid]

Are there Chinese bikes with Chinese kit, let alone the quoted £900 example, that are technically as sophisticated as drives from Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano etc?
By that bikes with drive systems with the algorithms to manage true "power assistance" as opposed to electrically powered bikes where the contribution of the cyclist is not a term in the power management algorithm.
I ask as I don't know, but are we comparing anything like similar products?

Having "tested" early throttle, and cadence managed power controlled cycles, along with true power assisted systems from Bosch, Derby, Yamaha and Shimano, the two groups are totally differing experiences, so not like for like.
I can readily accept there are two markets, one for electrically powered bikes and one for electrically assisted bikes, but these are different with their own appeal to different users. I don't get the endless slating of one technology by fans of the other, the requirements are different, not solutions for the same. Probably, the users buy into what technology they want for their personal needs?

Bosch I thought were only a component maker, one selected by a lot of premium bike brands, not an e-bike maker or branded e-bike.

 

[mike killay]

Probably because they in their choice of bike want a cycling experience with the level of sophistication, that can't be achieved without a degree of complication?

Exactly what is this 'Level of sophistication?'

 

[Danidl]

I had moved the sensor to get it to pick up a magnet on the pedal which worked very well.
I had to put it back to standard when the motor strted creaking in the frame apparantley not torqued correctly at the factory. It was when i went to refit my previously sucess mod that I cocked it up.
So as I said it was my fault. I knew nothing of draconian control measures and error modes, I do now!
I thought I could do what I like with it after I bought it! Doh!

Haa ! but you could and did.. Just don't expect someone else to pick up the pieces. As I read it you used a strategy to make the motor power work harder ..and outside its design limitations. So you get rapid wear. .

 

[Bobajob]

Due to my incompetence I fitted the sensor on backwards and the motor gave error 503 then the speedometer disappeared then get you home mode kicked in.
Now the local shop has to send the complete bike back to the factory as Bosch will not empower him to reset the motor.

If its a new bike and its gone wrong as long as its within a month ask for your money back from the suppliers?

 

[mike killay]

Are there Chinese bikes with Chinese kit, let alone the quoted £900 example, that are technically as sophisticated as drives from Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano etc?
By that bikes with drive systems with the algorithms to manage true "power assistance" as opposed to electrically powered bikes where the contribution of the cyclist is not a term in the power management algorithm.
I ask as I don't know, but are we comparing anything like similar products?

Having "tested" early throttle, and cadence managed power controlled cycles, along with true power assisted systems from Bosch, Derby, Yamaha and Shimano, the two groups are totally differing experiences, so not like for like.
I can readily accept there are two markets, one for electrically powered bikes and one for electrically assisted bikes, but these are different with their own appeal to different users. I don't get the endless slating of one technology by fans of the other, the requirements are different, not solutions for the same. Probably, the users buy into what technology they want for their personal needs?

Bosch I thought were only a component maker, one selected by a lot of premium bike brands, not an e-bike maker or branded e-bike.

I suppose that eventually the market will decide. It just seems annoying that Bosch are able to apparently avoid The Treaty of Rome and a level playing field, deny third party repairers their rights, and make a hugely overpriced product just by adding unnecessary electronics so that in effect, no-one can repair their devices including Bosch themselves.
Remember the VW shenanigans? Again a case of fiddling with the electronics, not to improve the product but to improve the profit.

 

[Danidl]

Exactly what is this 'Level of sophistication?'

Mike, I accept that different people want different things .and yes the Bosch system is very sophisticated. It gives pedal assist , so you get exactly the experience of just being a more powerful cyclist. My previous Urban Mover and now the newer Forme bike, I got my better half, only 6 months ago, both with rear hub motors, give a different experience. Even were the chain removed, and the pedals rotated they would move along smartly. The bigger question is does it matter?. For a commuting machine , not a lot, and the greater inefficiency of the hub, can be countered by a bigger battery pack ,and still be less expensive, than the more sophisticated Bosch

 

[sjpt]

I think we should remember when we use the term 'sophisticated' for Bosch motors (and in many other contexts) that it was originally a term of abuse, pretty much synonymous with 'adulterated'.

People generally use the word sophisticated as if it is a good thing; to me it remains a trigger suggesting there may be something bad behind it.

 

[Ocsid]

I think we should remember when we use the term 'sophisticated' for Bosch motors (and in many other contexts) that it was originally a term of abuse, pretty much synonymous with 'adulterated'.

People generally use the word sophisticated as if it is a good thing; to me it remains a trigger suggesting there may be something bad behind it.

Well, as it was a machine I was using it precisely in that context, as I do in discussing engineering matters,
"(of a machine, system, or technique) developed to a high degree of complexity."

 

[Andy-Mat]

Are there Chinese bikes with Chinese kit, let alone the quoted £900 example, that are technically as sophisticated as drives from Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano etc?
By that bikes with drive systems with the algorithms to manage true "power assistance" as opposed to electrically powered bikes where the contribution of the cyclist is not a term in the power management algorithm.
I ask as I don't know, but are we comparing anything like similar products?

Having "tested" early throttle, and cadence managed power controlled cycles, along with true power assisted systems from Bosch, Derby, Yamaha and Shimano, the two groups are totally differing experiences, so not like for like.
I can readily accept there are two markets, one for electrically powered bikes and one for electrically assisted bikes, but these are different with their own appeal to different users. I don't get the endless slating of one technology by fans of the other, the requirements are different, not solutions for the same. Probably, the users buy into what technology they want for their personal needs?

Bosch I thought were only a component maker, one selected by a lot of premium bike brands, not an e-bike maker or branded e-bike.

People here who buy Bosch bikes, and ones driven by Bosch motors as well, call their bikes "Bosch!" The name on the motors is very obvious, obviously for marketing reasons....
That the components are made in the far east, and possibly assembled here, as someone recently posted, I myself cannot say either way, as I do not know.
But if true, it makes a mockery of people here looking down on cheap Chinese Bikes, as they are getting possibly the same parts in their Bosch motor, with a snick snack software, to "bind them" together, for a horrendous price increase - who knows!
Most people owning an e-bike, have no inclination to understand how it works, and only when it goes wrong, then they look to us Pedelecers for help.
But what ALL people want from an e-bike, is full reliability, and as they do not understand most of what you posted, its simply immaterial to them. Only for the favoured few?
For most people, simply getting from A to B is far more important!
Having fun too, and not sitting at home waiting for their pride and joy to be repaired from some software glitch!
I have ridden Bosch bikes over relatively short distances (never more than 20 KMs), over almost 10 years (guessing slightly), the ones owned by friends, but I have not noticed anything remarkably different to far cheaper bikes, except that in comparison, the cheap bikes IMHO, appear to be generally a) far more reliable and b) easier/simpler to repair!
But the owners appear to have similar opinions as you have posted, it cost more, is not a "no-name" therefore it MUST be better!!
But do not forget, the larger, by far, segment of the e-bikes on the road, are the cheaper models, for people without a fat bank balance, who maybe have to use bikes to get to work.
That is a fact.
Or those who simply do not have the money to even consider an expensive bike, even if they wanted to....
Remember, adding "snick snack" to a bike or a car is easy, but in the first case, there is simply more to go wrong, but then having some of those up market companies making money from bikes that suddenly refuse to work, is appalling. Then requiring the owner to pay large sums to get it back to them for a repair, is also appalling!
But we must ALL not lose sight of the fact that we (luckily) live in "Free" countries, so we can each of us buy and use the car, e-bike or whatever that we wish to......and if the bike goes wrong, some of us simply jump in our cars!
But never forget the people who do not have a car, they will demand (and get) proper reliability, from their LBS or their own DIY knowledge, this reliability will generally only be achieved by simple mechanisms, without "Snick snack".....
I have owned two rear hub motor e-bikes, neither has had a motor problem. I could not tell you any fine detail from either of those motors, as I have never ever had to look inside one in over 10 years of e-bike riding!
"Don't touch a running machine!!"
Now that is something I am immensely proud of, as I also saved myself money, with the purchases!
My old Scottish Blood loves that!
Andy
PS. "Snick Snack", a German name (I have intentionally spelled slightly wrongly for simplicity) for unimportant extras, that appeal to the child in us!
See here:- https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=translate+schnick+schnack+to+English

 

[Amoto65]

Yawn......

 

[mike killay]

Looking from both sides:-
I have ridden my son in laws Bosch powered bike. He is also a lycra and only uses his ebike for commuting.
It is a nice ride, but it is no better at hill climbing than my old Tonaro with hand throttle.
My son in law has ridden my bike and although generally dismissive of it, agrees that the throttle is very useful (he is an ex motorcyclist).
What I did not like about the Bosch motor is that living on top of a quite steep hill, I was not able to get full power from the motor after a long ride, simply because of my age and lack of stamina.
Having grown up with un-indexed derailleur gears with the lever on the down tube, I find that even the cheapest of modern derailleurs are actually very good indeed.
Not being a speed merchant or MTB enthusiast means that modern rim brakes (So much better than Fibrax blocks on chrome steel )are more than adequate enough.
So, give me Chinese type simple bikes any day.
KISS is more than just a clever set of initials, why build in unneeded complexity?
Profits?

 

[Andy-Mat]

Looking from both sides:-
I have ridden my son in laws Bosch powered bike. He is also a lycra and only uses his ebike for commuting.
It is a nice ride, but it is no better at hill climbing than my old Tonaro with hand throttle.
My son in law has ridden my bike and although generally dismissive of it, agrees that the throttle is very useful (he is an ex motorcyclist).
What I did not like about the Bosch motor is that living on top of a quite steep hill, I was not able to get full power from the motor after a long ride, simply because of my age and lack of stamina.
Having grown up with un-indexed derailleur gears with the lever on the down tube, I find that even the cheapest of modern derailleurs are actually very good indeed.
Not being a speed merchant or MTB enthusiast means that modern rim brakes (So much better than Fibrax blocks on chrome steel )are more than adequate enough.
So, give me Chinese type simple bikes any day.
KISS is more than just a clever set of initials, why build in unneeded complexity?
Profits?

 

[Ocsid]

But the owners appear to have similar opinions as you have posted, it cost more, is not a "no-name" therefore it MUST be better!!

Andy, please have the courtesy to only credit me with views I have actually expressed in posts.

 

[vfr400]

Mike, I accept that different people want different things .and yes the Bosch system is very sophisticated. It gives pedal assist , so you get exactly the experience of just being a more powerful cyclist. My previous Urban Mover and now the newer Forme bike, I got my better half, only 6 months ago, both with rear hub motors, give a different experience. Even were the chain removed, and the pedals rotated they would move along smartly. The bigger question is does it matter?. For a commuting machine , not a lot, and the greater inefficiency of the hub, can be countered by a bigger battery pack ,and still be less expensive, than the more sophisticated Bosch

Good comment, but you got the efficiency the wrong way round. Every test has shown that either hub-motors are more efficient or they have similar efficiency. It's a complete fallacy that crank-motors are more efficient. I'm still waiting for anyone to provide alternative test results that show otherwise.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Andy, please have the courtesy to only credit me with views I have actually expressed in posts.

I did!

 

[Andy-Mat]

Good comment, but you got the efficiency the wrong way round. Every test has shown that either hub-motors are more efficient or they have similar efficiency. It's a complete fallacy that crank-motors are more efficient. I'm still waiting for anyone to provide alternative test results that show otherwise.

Hubs have less mechanical losses. And no single point of failure.
Andy

 

[Ocsid]

Is there not grounds to believe our DC motor's efficiency as others, is linked to their operating rpm?
[Logic has it that any motor efficiency curve must diminish towards its lower revs, as stalled the efficiency has to be zero, power goes in but none comes out.]

Thus an installation that allows the gear ratio to be varied so its motor's rpm is optimised for the load and road speed of the bike, ought to be better at a range of speeds, than the classic hub design where the motor's speed is directly linked to road speed, so peak efficiency is only met at a unique road speed?

 

[mike killay]

Is there not grounds to believe our DC motor's efficiency as others, is linked to their operating rpm?
[Logic has it that any motor efficiency curve must diminish towards its lower revs, as stalled the efficiency has to be zero, power goes in but none comes out.]

Thus an installation that allows the gear ratio to be varied so its motor's rpm is optimised for the load and road speed of the bike, ought to be better at a range of speeds, than the classic hub design where the motor's speed is directly linked to road speed, so peak efficiency is only met at a unique road speed?

Real life experience:-
I frequently ride my crank driver about 1.5 miles up a very gentle slope that once was a railway line. Probably about 1 in 200.
If I come up in 8th (top) gear I can do 13 mph without pedalling. The motor feels warm to the hand.
If I use 7th gear, the speed remains the same and again the motor is warm.
If I use 6th gear the speed is still the same but the motor is cooler.
I suspect that the motor is more efficient in the lower gear and losing less electricity making heat.
My hub motor cannot do that.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Is there not grounds to believe our DC motor's efficiency as others, is linked to their operating rpm?
[Logic has it that any motor efficiency curve must diminish towards its lower revs, as stalled the efficiency has to be zero, power goes in but none comes out.]

Thus an installation that allows the gear ratio to be varied so its motor's rpm is optimised for the load and road speed of the bike, ought to be better at a range of speeds, than the classic hub design where the motor's speed is directly linked to road speed, so peak efficiency is only met at a unique road speed?

Do not make the mistake of assuming that electric motors are similar in any way to motors that burn say petrol or diesel, especially with regard to torque and RPM.
A stalled/stopped/braked DC motor, is still developing a torque value if power is being applied, and assuming that the controller is built well enough to keep the current and heating affects within tolerances, of course, though it cannot move.
An internal combustion motor cannot develope torque when stopped.
If you have ever driven any modern electric car, it is quickly apparent to the driver, that the motors accelerate the car remarkably quickly, and they do not have or need a gearbox, because the BLDC motors commonly used, have an efficiency that approaches around 90%.
Electric vehicles don't feature a multi-speed gearbox like conventional petrol or diesel vehicles. Instead, they have just one gear!

Are electric cars automatic or manual? - Leasecar Blog

Currently, less than two per cent of the vehicles on UK roads are electric.

leasecar.uk

So they do not "need" gearboxes. As they are allowed legally to run at far higher road speeds than e-bikes.....
So some electric bikes, mainly because of legal power/speed restrictions, actually have gears, or a method of allowing a higher RPM to be achieved. A sort of "get around", that simply adds complexity and a further place for a failures to develope, sadly!
If someone developed say an e-bike BLDC motors with say 12 (or even more) fields, and the appropriate controller, speed control could be made flawlessly for any road speed required, but at a far higher cost of course.....
You may find the following article interesting with regard to both major types of DC motor, brushed and Brushless, as it explains the subject rather well in my opinion.
See attachment.
Regards
Andy