Bulk charging A123 LifePo4 and Konion Li-Ion packs

Joneser

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Oct 13, 2013
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They are the 12C A123's. No I didn't balance them for this journey (but did for the one before that) - every time I have balanced them so far they are been virtually balanced already.

Until today they have been perfect for my commute so I'm not giving up on them yet :) Monitoring to continue...
Charged them up as soon as I got in. Kept the watt meter attached and note that the volts are slowly dropping from full charge - now down to 40.47.

Which makes me wonder if they were a bit flat this morning as I had charged them 36 hours earlier (used my manual fold up yesterday).
 

jerrysimon

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Aug 27, 2009
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I updated my post with voltage limits.

So at 40.47 we have 40.47/12 = 3.37/cell.

Bulk charging rarely takes them above 3.4v anyway. When you balance them it will take them to 3.6v but it always drops down to 3.4V when bulk charging.

Try them again with your watt meter and see how capacity is taken out and then connect the watt meter when you recharge them to see how much capacity it puts back in again :)

Usually it puts in a little more than taken out due to heat losses.

Regards

Jerry
 

Joneser

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Oct 13, 2013
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So I reattached the charger and they quickly went back up to 44.8 Volts fully charged. Within seconds of full charge it started dropping again and is now down to 43.4V.
 

jerrysimon

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Aug 27, 2009
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I don't take mine up that high any more and now use a charger set to around 41V i.e. 3.41V/cell.

44.8V will take them to 3.73V which is a little bit over their 3.6V max which is why they are then re balancing back down to 43.4V/3.61V per cell.

They should be ok if you do that but you are stressing them a little at 3.73V as the excesses charge is getting shunted around the cells.

Jerry
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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Joneser, did you check the cell voltages before charging? That would have told you exactly what the problem was. You can't tell anything from the pack voltage or charging time. It can be dangerous to charge a cell that's gone too low. They can get internal shorts that heat them up until they catch fire. You can still charge dodgy ones to see if they're OK, but you have to take special precautions, like checking the temperature and reducing the charge current. You need to forget about pack voltage and concentrate on cell voltage until you're convinced that all the cells are behaving correctly. You should check them now. Is it one that's self-discharging, or are they all going down a bit?
 

Joneser

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Oct 13, 2013
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Joneser, did you check the cell voltages before charging? That would have told you exactly what the problem was. You can't tell anything from the pack voltage or charging time. It can be dangerous to charge a cell that's gone too low. They can get internal shorts that heat them up until they catch fire. You can still charge dodgy ones to see if they're OK, but you have to take special precautions, like checking the temperature and reducing the charge current. You need to forget about pack voltage and concentrate on cell voltage until you're convinced that all the cells are behaving correctly. You should check them now. Is it one that's self-discharging, or are they all going down a bit?
Thanks Dave
I bought the meter that Jerry recommended which I think shows individual cell voltages. It arrived in the post today and is at home.
I'll cycle home and then test them before charging.
 
D

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Sorry, I thought you already had a balance charger and I didn't realise that you're not at home. For anybody else that has or wants to have a BMS-less battery, get a balance charger first. It's a lot safer.
 

Joneser

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Oct 13, 2013
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Sorry, I thought you already had a balance charger and I didn't realise that you're not at home. For anybody else that has or wants to have a BMS-less battery, get a balance charger first. It's a lot safer.
Now at home. Briefly, the journey home was into a strong headwind so I used the motor a lot more than usual. It used 2Ah and reduced the pack to 36V. So had just enough. So for my journey in to work when the battery didn't last, it couldn't have been charged fully.

I'm balance charging them now with my Turnigy - 5 cells were about 3V and 1 cell was 3.2V

And I need to work out how to use the CellLog 8M which arrived yesterday.

Update: the second 6s pack were all between 3 and 3.12V so I assume all the cells are happy.
 
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Joneser

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Oct 13, 2013
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I have 2 cheap bulk chargers - 1 at work and 1 at home. They look the same. The one at home measures 41.4V using my cheap Volt meter. Assuming my charger at work is the same, why is it charging the batteries to 44.8V? Or maybe the charger at work is different and I should bring in my Volt meter to test it.
 
D

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It doesn't matter too much what voltage you charge LiFePO4 cells to as long as you go over 3.3V (39.6V pack).After that the voltage climbs rapidly without adding much charge, so some chargers go as high as 45v. You can go very high without damage,but there's no point because you don't add any useful extra charge. If you leave LiFePO4 cellsfor a while without use, any charge over 33V will dissipate, so you pack will drift down to 39.6v.

It's not the same for the more common LiNiMnCo cells, which you shouldn't charge over 4.2v per cell or 42V for the pack
 

Joneser

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Oct 13, 2013
83
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It doesn't matter too much what voltage you charge LiFePO4 cells to as long as you go over 3.3V (39.6V pack).After that the voltage climbs rapidly without adding much charge, so some chargers go as high as 45v. You can go very high without damage,but there's no point because you don't add any useful extra charge. If you leave LiFePO4 cellsfor a while without use, any charge over 33V will dissipate, so you pack will drift down to 39.6v.

It's not the same for the more common LiNiMnCo cells, which you shouldn't charge over 4.2v per cell or 42V for the pack
Thanks Dave. So with lifepo's bulk over charging is not a big deal but running them down should always be followed by balanced charging. That a fair summary?

Jerry sorry for hi jacking your thread.
 
D

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According to what I've read, overcharging LiFePO4 is not a big deal provided that you don't go too far. I have charged some cells to over 4v myself with no apparent detriment. Obviously,you should aim to keep them 3.65v or below. I've also read about some that were taken to 10v, which didn't catch fire or explode, but it can't have done them any good.

When you get/make a new battery pack, you've no idea whether you have any weak or otherwise defective cells, so you need to monitor their performance over the first few charges if running without a BMS.

Say you have a weak cell with less capacity than the others, and for simplicity, its a 10S1P pack of 36v of 5aH LMC. It wiil be 42v fully charged (4.2v per cell). Now, you use the pack,but one cell only has 3aH capacity. Your controller can only see the pack voltage, so when you've used 3 aH, the weak cell will reach its 3v limit, but the others will all be 3.6v or so, so the controller will see 35.4v and will keep going. If you continue to run, the weak cell will go down very rapidly into the danger zone until your controller sees a pack voltage of 31v or whatever, which means that the weak cell will be close to zero and the rest will be 3.44v,and you've used maybe 3.5aH. Confused by the lack of capacity, you put them on charge. Assuming that the dangerously low cell doesn't develop internal shorts and it accepts charge, your bulk charger will charge until the pack reaches 42v. The 9 cells will reach 4.2v after 3.5 aH is put in,but the weak cell will reach 4.2v after only 3 aH, so now it gets overcharged by nearly .5aH until the pack voltage reaches 42v. After over-discharging and then over-charging, there's a real risk of it catching fire. LiFePO4 is a bit safer from catching fire, but there's still a significant risk, like when that guy set his garage on fire recently when bulk-charging his BMS-less LiFePO4 battery that he bought from Ebay.

So, let's assume that your pack is OK. After a few charge/discharge cycles, where you've seen them all go up and down evenly by checking the cell voltages before and after charging with your bulk charger, you can take a reasonable risk of not checking them for a few cycles, and then gradually decrease the amount of checking. Obviously, if anything doesn't look right at any time, you need to check every cycle until you have confidence in the pack again.

It's not that you should balance-charge them for the first few cycles. You should use your bulk charger, but you need to check that they stay balanced,or you can use your balance charger, but you need to keep watching the cell voltages to check that they all go up evenly.
 
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Joneser

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Oct 13, 2013
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Cycled in today and used 1.4Ah and the cells were only down to about 3.3V. Perfect!

Brought my Turnigy in as I wanted to check something and it is happening again – one of the cells is charging faster (the same cell in each pack (why would that be)). They start off balanced but when they all get to about 3.4V one cell quickly charges to 3.6V and the other 5 take another half hour or so to catch up. This happens on both 6s battery packs (to the cell in the same location on each).

Is this something to do with the Turnigy or the batteries. Whats going on!?
 

jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
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Cambridge, UK
I have had that happen with some of my packs. The balancer will hold charge off any cell that reaches 3.6V and allow the others to catch up. Don't worry about it. In my four years of use these pack configurations/type of A123 cells have proven very robust and safe.

Just use and enjoy. Maybe check balance every few months or so.

Regards

Jerry
 
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