Cameras for safety & insurance

[Bogmonster666]

Just getting back into cycling and not great roads here. Also, cycling slowly as recovering from an injury and that appears to further antagonise impatient drivers.

Had a VERY close pass today. Was odd really as I was well in secondary position (did not feel need to take the lane) and there was nothing oncoming - however some idiot in a shinny black Porsche decided to pass me at speed with about 12 inches to spare. There was clear road and not close to a bend so they could have safely passed without slowing at all. Either completely oblivious or trying to scare me I think. Or maybe it was their personal road and I was tresspassing maybe? I have seen a few close pass videos and maybe it was just me, but this was VERY close considering the speed.

I am a bit anti proliferation of cameras tbh, but idiots like the one today need to be stopped - the probability of this kind of idiot killing somebody is unacceptably high imo, all it takes is a wobble, a less confident cyclist, a gust of wind, something in the road... I wish I had a camera and next time I will! I have no intention of reporting every close pass but I am annoyed with myself I was not in a position to report this one.

Not flushed with cash so don't want to spend a fortune. I do often cycle at night and I know this will present problems. Ideally I can get other use out of camera as well. Occasionally I scuba dive and I am a very frequent caver (well, when my broken ankle heals I will be again). Won't video much in caves but a few caves really warrant a quick spin with a camera.

So to cameras, a used GoPro 5 black may be an option at the upper end of what I want to spend (do want one with removable battery). Cheaper options are Akaso ek7000 pro or the Brave 7 SE (not that much cheaper than the GoPro).

Image stabilization is a must. Ideally limited waterproof without a separate case for cycling (will always use case for scuba and caving). Low light that does not suck. 4k is nice to have but would rather hd with good low light and stabilization than 4k.

If I want to shop in the worst offenders then reading a number plate at night would be important (but I accept difficult). I cycle with moderate to bright lighting at night - country roads with no street lighting.

What do people recommend?

Whilst I am at it, also after 3rd party insurance to that will cover ebike. Less worried about theft cover. I know some of the organizations like cycling UK include insurance - what are good cheap options here? I am never expecting to need the 3rd party insurance, but that is kind of the point with insurance isn't it?

BM

 

[guerney]

I don't know if many camera users will see your post here.

They're ALL useless capturing number plates at night! GoPros may manage it using manual settings, but thus far I have yet to see even the 10 Hero Black capture night number plates successfully... plus it's IS doesn't work at all well in low light. I keep hoping @matthewslack has cause to delve into his settings for a night shoot using his, but certainly don't want to encourage him to venture onto dark roads, when drivers are even crazier.

My Crosstour 4k CT9000 does a decent job during the day - clear number plates even without EIS. I got almost 2 hours from a third party battery recording 1080p 30fps the other day, which is a lot longer than a GoPro.

I keep thinking that the solution for me may be a Pi and it's Pi camera module. But sourcing or making a waterproof case will be a pain, as will the mount and it's size.

 

[Nealh]

A rear mounted cam may be better then a front if only using one.

 

[guerney]

I could mount a rear facing camera, tellytubby-style facing backwards on top of my helmet - the other is on the front of my jawguard, but I'll first try to find room for a rear facing camera on my bike. At night, my mad bright headight can't overexpose numberplates behind me, the recording of which will likely be prevented by mad bright vehicle headlights pointed at the rear camera.

A second camera means yet another set of batteries to charge before a bicycle ride...

For night footage, I don't think there is a camera available which caters well enough for the needs of cylists. Even the Sony RX0 with it's relatively massive sensor, looks useless in that regard.

 

[guerney]

To program a Pi with Pi camera module probably wouln't be worth the effort... I'd need a better sensor and lenses, plus it'd need to capture in true HDR ie taking at least three exposures in very rapid succession to combine a resulting very detailed series of images at high speed, while adapting automatically to light conditions to best prioritise the recording of number plates in the dark specifically. Not trivial, I'd rather simply buy something, but there isn't yet anything small enough for the purpose worth buying that I've seen convincing test footage of.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Not sure what is the best action camera for low light but I wonder if image stabilization actually helps as it downgrades the image slightly and is less effective in low light. I'm sort of thinking a front facing action camera is better as you have the bikes own lights illuminating the road and the rear of the car has less light causing less glare so seems like you are more likely to get a good image. As for settings I guess setting the ISO as high as possible or just choosing night mode if the camera has one. A high ISO grainy image seems better than a camera that has a very slow shutter speed. Most action cameras are fixed aperture I think so nothing to do there.

I'm sort of wondering if some more basic action cameras might have better low light performance. Some of them only have crude 1.3MP sensors which are often used in security cameras so can actually work well in low light but just give poorer quality images with less colour accuracy. The higher the pixel count of sensors often the worse low light performance. Maybe a action camera with only a 4MP or 8MP sensor would be a good compromise.

Also remember many action cameras interpolate their video so you want to use a mode that is true resolution. For example many budget action cameras like those based on the allwinner V3S probably the most common chipset, is sold as 4k but its 4K mode is 1080p30 upscaled, its 1080p60 is 720P60 upscaled but its 1080p30 mode is true 1080p30 mode. Often such action cameras only have a 4MP sensor anyway which limits resolution so it would be impossible to do true 4K video or images.

Some action cameras are just rubbish but some models can be configured to give half decent results as long as you understand the limitations of the chipset and sensor.

Maybe if you have a action camera with a fast timelapse mode, maybe more than 5 images per second that could be effective however most action cameras have limited time lapse settings often just whole seconds apart.

Some action cameras do true 4K but with a limited frame rate like 12fps or 15fps maybe that could be effective for night time shooting as more time to collect light.

Personally I wouldn't use a good action camera like a modern gopro for cycling. I feel a action camera in the £20-50 price bracket should be ideal.

 

[matthewslack]

If you can't afford to spend the cost of a GoPro then I'd go with cheap action cam and listen to recommendations here.

If you don't want to spend the cost of a GoPro but can afford to, then I'd say overcome your doubts and get a Hero 10 Black.

You get what you pay for. Rock solid stabilisation and build quality, no case needed, battery change in seconds, about 2 hours life in 1080p, and gateway into a new world of filming beyond biking.

I bought a cheap action cam recently and just the awkwardness of battery access in the always needed case means it has not been used. It might be fine for a short commute, but if it was my main camera I could see it being abandoned as too much effort. To be useful when incidents can happen any time, it needs to always be there.

 

[guerney]

As for settings I guess setting the ISO as high as possible or just choosing night mode if the camera has one. A high ISO grainy image seems better than a camera that has a very slow shutter speed. Most action cameras are fixed aperture I think so nothing to do there.

Even GoPro max ISO is 6400, and shutter speed control is possible - not so on cheap action cameras. GoPro aperture is F16 equivalent, pretty sharp in good light, but as you say can't be changed - unhelpful for night shooting.

Not sure what is the best action camera for low light but I wonder if image stabilization actually helps as it downgrades the image slightly and is less effective in low light.

Optical image stabilisation would be fantastic, but action cameras enlarge and crop, or move the sensor... in any case GoPro IS doesn't work at night.

Some action cameras are just rubbish but some models can be configured to give half decent results as long as you understand the limitations of the chipset and sensor.

Sensors in action cameras are pretty poor compared to those used in flagship cellphones from the likes of Samsung and Sony.

Maybe if you have a action camera with a fast timelapse mode, maybe more than 5 images per second that could be effective however most action cameras have limited time lapse settings often just whole seconds apart.

Sadly, there is no shutter speed control on my CT9000 in that mode, or in any other mode for that matter.

Some action cameras do true 4K but with a limited frame rate like 12fps or 15fps maybe that could be effective for night time shooting as more time to collect light.

Which action cameras have native 4k sensors?

Personally I wouldn't use a good action camera like a modern gopro for cycling. I feel a action camera in the £20-50 price bracket should be ideal.

I don't want half a grand's worth of camera sitting on my chin, I fall on my head too often.

 

[guerney]

You get what you pay for. Rock solid stabilisation and build quality, no case needed, battery change in seconds, about 2 hours life in 1080p, and gateway into a new world of filming beyond biking.

Have you tried it at night? If you can clearly record vehicle number plates, could you upload a sample to Vimeo or Youtube? Vimeo streams at a higher bitrate.

 

[guerney]

gateway into a new world of filming beyond biking.

Agreed, great in good light - just try making anything decent at night without a gimbal and bright lights. I'd be curious to see what footage of number plates would look like, with shutter speed and ISO set as high as possible... otherwise it's motion blur all over the shop, from all the footage I've seen thus far. Looks totally useless for cyclists using any auto settings in very low light.

 

[Nealh]

My cheap cameras have all been good in daylight so not an issue, as long as the plate is readable that is all that is needed.
B&M Goodmans for £20 is good enough, dark hours as most have said thye are debatable.

 

[guerney]

Most action cameras are fixed aperture I think so nothing to do there.

The F1.4 on my Canon pretty can sometimes turn night into day, but I can't use that. Too big and heavy....

 

[guerney]

My cheap cameras have all been good in daylight so not an issue, as long as the plate is readable that is all that is needed.
B&M Goodmans for £20 is good enough, dark hours as most have said thye are debatable.

The cheapos have daytime number plate capture nailed. I've yet to see convincing GoPro night footage - every video I've seen thus far features blurry number plates - just as bad as the cheapos in that regard... only more cinematically so, with greater dynamic range.

 

[matthewslack]

Have you tried it at night? If you can clearly record vehicle number plates, could you upload a sample to Vimeo or Youtube? Vimeo streams at a higher bitrate.

No night riding yet, some dim light this morning, I will get round to experimenting with settings.

A picture posted a week or so ago was impressively clear with light from following headlamps, so I wonder if a forward white light mounted low down at number plate height of the RHS fork leg might help?

 

[matthewslack]

Castlebay at 06:15 this morning.



Twilight. Still from 1080p, exposure adjusted for clearest plate, looks like SE16OBP, or SC16OBP. Mot check gives white 3500kg Renault for one, and silver Honda for the other.

Whether that is solid enough, I don't know.

Just a picture example of an innocently parked van.

 

[guerney]

A picture posted a week or so ago was impressively clear with light from following headlamps, so I wonder if a forward white light mounted low down at number plate height of the RHS fork leg might help?

My 1800LM headlight illuminates plates too brightly for my camera's settings, all of them... which is why I'm curious about using a much higher shutter speed than my camera is capable of - shutter speed is not user assignable on mine. ISO is the same as the GoPro at 6400.

 

[Nealh]

I read a slighty blurred /fuzzy SE16, by simply enlarging the pic the plate reads much better.
The issue comes when one can't read the plate even when enlarged.

 

[guerney]

Castlebay at 06:15 this morning.

View attachment 48694

Twilight. Still from 1080p, exposure adjusted for clearest plate, looks like SE16OBP, or SC16OBP. Mot check gives white 3500kg Renault for one, and silver Honda for the other.

Whether that is solid enough, I don't know.

Just a picture example of an innocently parked van.

Could you upload the original? My camera is also capable of capturing number plates of parked vehicles at night. It's when cars are passing by fast at night, close, that it all falls apart - particularly at the edges of the photo, where better lenses are sharper. When plates are fully illuminated by my headlight, it's pointless trying to discern them. But I'm not discarding my headlight, as it's far too useful in making me more visible on the road at night and during the day. Besides, it lights up the road and terrain very well.

 

[flecc]

Castlebay at 06:15 this morning.

View attachment 48694

Twilight. Still from 1080p, exposure adjusted for clearest plate, looks like SE16OBP, or SC16OBP. Mot check gives white 3500kg Renault for one, and silver Honda for the other.

Whether that is solid enough, I don't know.

Easily clear enough, SE16 OBP

Below enlarged but not enhanced:

 

[guerney]

BTW @matthewslack - did anything happen as a result of your Police reports? I'm starting to wonder if video footage is more compelling, and more likely to motivate cops to take action than photos. Trickier to guage speed from a series of photos.