Cyclamatic £319.99 for a day.

[flecc]

I just can't get my head around a £2500 price tag on a ebike when I can buy a new motorcycle or 50inch LED TV for less.

As David says, it's quantity. The sort of e-bikes we buy elsewhere aren't the sort the Chinese use, they like bikes of around 600 to 700 watts that are more like mopeds/shopper bikes and which are often single speed and need very little pedalling.

The bikes we prefer in the west supply a relatively tiny market, and the market for bikes costing £2500 and more is so small that they are hand built on miniscule quantities. An illustration. The Giant Lafree was one of the longest running and most successful quality mid/high price e-bikes, but over more than six years the total sold of all three models was barely 20,000 worldwide. Divide that by six years, then divide it by the countries it was sold in, Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Britain, the USA and Taiwan, and you'll see how the sales per country were miniscule. So small indeed that Giant said they had only ever made a loss on it and therefore discontinued it, depite it being held in high esteem. Since Giant are the world's largest cycle manufacturer, what chance have smaller players got for selling quality at lower prices.

Those TVs you mention are used everywhere, east and west, and are mass produced with automation in their many millions.
.

 

[eddieo]

Err......I thought there where approaching 20 million E Bikes in China. Even Pres Obama has one now notice thay gave him a pair.......second one for parts? lol


Bike Europe - News: Obama Receives e-Bikes from China

 

[flecc]

Err......I thought there where approaching 20 million E Bikes in China. Even Pres Obama has one now notice thay gave him a pair.......second one for parts? lol


Bike Europe - News: Obama Receives e-Bikes from China

I don't understand your point Eddie?

As I said, the Chinese don't use our kind of e-bikes much, and the Lafree was one of the longest running and more successful of our kind of e-bike in the world outside China, but it's sales were tiny.

The e-bikes the Chinese use are usually more like mopeds than bikes, and so different that they don't enable our kind of bikes to benefit from their bulk production.

In any case, it's cost per model that counts in reducing manufacturing costs.
.

 

[onmebike]

you can edit & delete it.

You could have argued and paid a top up amount, and got the latest technology out of the insurance company

I just dont get your logic, it is nonsense as far as I am concerned...You are all enthusiastic regards a purchase wth absolutely no history, no track record and no guarantee of anything.

are you seriously suggesting that owning one of these will be a comparable experience to owning a 905SE

for a couple of hundred quid more you could have a reliable well regarded 36 v bike like an Alien...what is the point

Alien shares components with both of my bikes, the cyclamatic and the no name one. The pulsar has the same rear servo brake and possibly the same hub as the cyclamatic. The Alien kits have the same motor as my no name(Souzhou Bafang) and the same make batteries as Cyclamatic(Zhenlong) Shimano gears, what else is there, the rests just a bike?
Regarding comparable to a Wisper, Legal limits taken into account, same max speed and power but more cost effective. Cost of Wisper = 5 or more cheaper bikes. Comfort mostly depends on saddle and suspension but mtb's aren't the most comfortable bikes anyway.
I've been involved in model airplanes and helicopters for many years mostly ic but also electric brushed and brushless motors. There's nothing that fantastic about brushless technology that warrants ridiculous prices. I have a central heating pump thats just beginning to get noisy after 29yrs continual service, when purchased it was peanuts to buy an identical replacement only cost £45 today. What do you think is on your bike that warrants its price, it wasn't hand made specifically to your requirements it was mass produced.
Take any component of your bike, go to China and get it copied for a fraction of the price. I think Old Timer Dave touched on this subject on another thread.

 

[flecc]

Two questions for you onmebike:

1) Why is it that almost all those who think it's so easy to sell an e-bike here at low prices don't do it?

2) Why is it that the majority of the few who try it fail?

I'll give you the answer that I know to both questions:

They just don't realise the difference between the factory gate price in China of all the components, and the price when it arrives here in the UK of an assembled bike with ongoing support and spares once all the costs and VAT are added.

You might also reflect on why the world's largest bicycle manufacturer has failed four times out of five with their e-bike ranges in the world outside China, mostly through being unable to make a profit on them.
.

 

[onmebike]

Two questions for you onmebike:

1) Why is it that almost all those who think it's so easy to sell an e-bike here at low prices don't do it?

2) Why is it that the majority of the few who try it fail?

I'll give you the answer that I know to both questions:

They just don't realise the difference between the factory gate price in China of all the components, and the price when it arrives here in the UK of an assembled bike with ongoing support and spares once all the costs and VAT are added.

You might also reflect on why the world's largest bicycle manufacturer has failed four times out of five with their e-bike ranges in the world outside China, mostly through being unable to make a profit on them.
.

Two relatively easy questions to answer.
1. Firstly I don't think its easy, but I do think its easier to sell cheap as the success of poundland, Lidl, Asda and Netto's prove. People are frightened of big outlay on items they know little about so cheap means less risk.
I never buy latest technology, I wait for prices to settle.
It takes huge initial outlay to buy in bulk, but thats how to get lower price's from the manufacturers. SportsHQ for example are buying direct from a chinese manufacturer, shipping is by the container load which costs very little per unit and for spares they break new bikes replacing the parts as need be.
Import duties and vat is proportional to the manufacturers price + shipping so the cheaper the goods the less you pay.
I enquired about conversion kits from a chinese manufacturer. Kits less batteries shipped by sea, $5.00 but took two months to arrive.

2. I think most fail because they put everything into their initial outlay leaving little in reserve. Specialising in one particular product such as ebikes without profit coming in from other source's is risky. Don't put all your eggs in one basket comes to mind.

Regarding the worlds largest bike manufacturer, I don't know why they failed but to do it four times they obviously made serious errors of judgement.
Another reason may have been, they were unknown around the world, I'd never heard of them.
Look on any high street there's affordable bikes everywhere. Specialist stuff only corners a small market hence the need for high price's.
When I get time I'll tell you a real success story about a friend who started with nothing and now has an empire due to cheap buying in China.

 

[NRG]

I agree with Flecc, those costs have to be paid for somewhere and just comparing hardware costs is not an apples to apples comparison. I'm sure SportsHQ thought they could shift them quickly at a low price and still make a small profit but the longer they sit on the shelf the more the margin shrinks and the more pressing the need to turn the product back into cash... I doubt the margins are enough to provide any decent level of backup or service let alone meet the same levels of support that Wisper or even the likes of Alien can provide.

 

[NRG]

With regard to your point #1 Onmebike, yes but only if there is a demand and really as Flecc points out E-Bikes don't sell in vast quantities.

 

[Alex728]

I was gonna say they gave President Obama two bikes because he's way taller than most South Chinese , but if you read the article one is for Mr President and the other is for Steven Chu, the US Energy minister and as his name suggests a very prominent Asian American, so its also a way of encouraging multicultural trade.

No different from the sterling work that Wisper and other British e-bike manufacturers do.

As David says, it's quantity. The sort of e-bikes we buy elsewhere aren't the sort the Chinese use, they like bikes of around 600 to 700 watts that are more like mopeds/shopper bikes and which are often single speed and need very little pedalling.
.

in most areas they also have a surprisingly pragmatic attitude to road traffic laws. Although these 700w "bikes" would be classed as mopeds in the EU and elsewhere, and are technically even outside Chinese traffic laws, the Chinese do not insist on helmets, CBT/licenses, paperwork etc. However I've heard that if a rider is involved in a RTC they are subject to strict penalties so that keeps the streets much safer than you would expect.

There is also a strong "DIY" culture and "mix and match", if your Chinese scooter breaks down it can be repaired at any shop not like this town (Ipswich) where only two mechanics will dare touch e-bikes and they are unsurprisingly overloaded with work..

As for the £320 bike, I don't disbelieve that the sports goods firm have a technician for support, but Powacycle (who make reasonable machines for the price point) are struggling with this (paradoxically maybe even due to a massive surge in sales!) they have at least 3 technicians and their bikes are being sold for twice the price, as well as their company also being cross-subsidised by other business areas.

 

[jerrysimon]

I have to say if nothing else this bargain basement ebike has generated a really interesting discussion

Regards

Jerry

 

[Bigbee]

Hi Jerry

I`m working in an 11`x11` shed (used to be my photographic studio) I`ve got a heater, aircon, dab radio, satellite tv, a pc and my wife brings me out endless cups of tea what more could you want while it`s snowing outside.

Dave

A 38 26 36 blonde Swedish ex model who likes tinkering and fiddling about with older men and their tools in their sheds?

 

[Old Timer]

First of all let me say that I don`t think anyone is saying that cheap is better. Of course there are some benefits in buying better (the most important being back up and spares) which is just so much more important the more you spend. No point spending £1500-£2000 on a bike that might develope a fault early on in it`s life(as things do) and you can`t get back up. You would certainly be less inclined to try to source spares from other places and even less likely to want a miss match looking bike even if you could do the work yourself. So! you pays your money and get the insurance that should anything go wrong within the warranty then it becomes the suppliers problem and not yours.

spares are available for these cheap Cyclamatic bikes at present but probably once they have sold out then you are on your own (most people realise that) and that`s where the need to be able to turn your hand to repairs yourself. Unfortunantley nothing or no one is beyond going to the dogs in this climate (look at Woolies and many good solid engineering companies that I have dealt with over the years)

So nothing is written in stone and lets face it those Cyclamatic bikes are the cost of a weekend away with your other half so the world aint gonna come to an end when/if your hub catches alight

Now having said that I pushed the button on the folder yesterday, it arrived today delivered next day at around £300(not from e bay). opening the box brought a smile to my face. It`s not the lightest folder I`ve ever seen but (and I`m being honest here) if it was £300 and not an E bike you wouldn`t be upset. I really don`t know how this has come about, old stock, bankrupt stock, Sportshq needing cash in a hurry! who knows.It has a 10.5amp battery @24V. I made it up indoors and my wife and I have been riding it around the house (we`ve got plenty of room)my wife just loves the riding position and I had to prise off of her(I can see her claing this one)
Now as I`ve mentioned before I`m building an Alien conversion and a lot of the parts seem to be the same. Now! I`m not running alien down because the kit is superb and Jim is a pleasure to deal with and I`m 100% sure the parts in the kit are well made and good value for money with the added ability to convert your favourite bike which I see as the major point in the exercise.BTW the Alien hub is superb, very gentle transition from nothing right the way through the range on the throttle which is great as it is a front wheel conversion and I`m convinced that when I get it on the road even in the wet it won`t be a problem. For sure if you are fitting a kit yourself then Jim`s your man.

We own a few acres of meadow and can`t wait for my granddaughters to come down and visit(they will probably create a cycle path around the perimeter)

David(whisper bikes)
Can I just say that of the threads I`ve read and been involved in on this forum you have conducted yourself in a way that certainly might see me as a customer at some time in the future.

Dave

 

[eddieo]

"I made it up indoors and my wife and I have been riding it around the house"

Whats is like on the stairs? (going up)

You are now amongst our most serious devotees....4 e bikes no less in a matter of weeks! lol.

It will be interesting to see how the kit and cyclo bikes compare, I suspect the Alien will be better due to the battery. but if you are not a heavyweight it wont matter so much until you reach a hill......

A few acres! Get a quad and rip it up!

 

[Old Timer]

"I made it up indoors and my wife and I have been riding it around the house"

Whats is like on the stairs? (going up)

Going up is fine! it`s coming down thats a problem

 

[Bigbee]

"I made it up indoors and my wife and I have been riding around the house"

QUOTE]

Thats good to hear,Ive never trusted the spam emails I receive each day regarding Viagra ( sp?)

Just read this, oh dear maybe a stronger dose is required?



QUOTE=Old Timer;67501]Going up is fine! it`s coming down thats a problem

hmm ,maybe needs some thing in his Whorelicks at night?

 

[NRG]

...or even Horlicks LOL!

 

[onmebike]

Warranty

First of all let me say that I don`t think anyone is saying that cheap is better. Of course there are some benefits in buying better (the most important being back up and spares) which is just so much more important the more you spend. No point spending £1500-£2000 on a bike that might develope a fault early on in it`s life(as things do) and you can`t get back up. You would certainly be less inclined to try to source spares from other places and even less likely to want a miss match looking bike even if you could do the work yourself. So! you pays your money and get the insurance that should anything go wrong within the warranty then it becomes the suppliers problem and not yours.

spares are available for these cheap Cyclamatic bikes at present but probably once they have sold out then you are on your own (most people realise that) and that`s where the need to be able to turn your hand to repairs yourself. Unfortunantley nothing or no one is beyond going to the dogs in this climate (look at Woolies and many good solid engineering companies that I have dealt with over the years)

So nothing is written in stone and lets face it those Cyclamatic bikes are the cost of a weekend away with your other half so the world aint gonna come to an end when/if your hub catches alight

Now having said that I pushed the button on the folder yesterday, it arrived today delivered next day at around £300(not from e bay). opening the box brought a smile to my face. It`s not the lightest folder I`ve ever seen but (and I`m being honest here) if it was £300 and not an E bike you wouldn`t be upset. I really don`t know how this has come about, old stock, bankrupt stock, Sportshq needing cash in a hurry! who knows.It has a 10.5amp battery @24V. I made it up indoors and my wife and I have been riding it around the house (we`ve got plenty of room)my wife just loves the riding position and I had to prise off of her(I can see her claing this one)
Now as I`ve mentioned before I`m building an Alien conversion and a lot of the parts seem to be the same. Now! I`m not running alien down because the kit is superb and Jim is a pleasure to deal with and I`m 100% sure the parts in the kit are well made and good value for money with the added ability to convert your favourite bike which I see as the major point in the exercise.BTW the Alien hub is superb, very gentle transition from nothing right the way through the range on the throttle which is great as it is a front wheel conversion and I`m convinced that when I get it on the road even in the wet it won`t be a problem. For sure if you are fitting a kit yourself then Jim`s your man.

We own a few acres of meadow and can`t wait for my granddaughters to come down and visit(they will probably create a cycle path around the perimeter)

David(whisper bikes)
Can I just say that of the threads I`ve read and been involved in on this forum you have conducted yourself in a way that certainly might see me as a customer at some time in the future.

Dave

Hi Dave, Regarding the warranty, isn't it the case now that under EU guidelines all electrical goods must be covered for 2yrs and if the supplier can't offer support he has to replace or refund? Also I've read that if goods fall into the high end category, customers should expect the warranty to reflect the higher price by being extended.
The paper read, it is reasonable for consumers purchasing top of the range goods to expect a longer service life and the warranty should reflect this.
This was recently tested in a court of law over an expensive TV and the claimant won the case which now sets a president as far as I'm aware.
SportsHQ claim to have spares backup and are expecting new models in the near future. I also saw the Cyclomatics advertised on a USA site, I'll post it if I can find it again.

 

[flecc]

Two relatively easy questions to answer.

1. Firstly I don't think its easy

2. I think most fail because they put everything into their initial outlay

I could refute every point you make in answer, for example everyone buys in container loads since that's the only way that e-bikes are sold ex-China.

However, rather than a back and forth argument on this, I'll just be patient and wait to see if SportsHQ are selling Cyclamatic in a year's time.

From past experience I doubt they will be, and I also think the Cyclamatic name might not be on the market then.
.

 

[Old Timer]

Two relatively easy questions to answer.
1. Firstly I don't think its easy, but I do think its easier to sell cheap as the success of poundland, Lidl, Asda and Netto's prove. People are frightened of big outlay on items they know little about so cheap

Fuuny you should mention cheap and Lidl. I was dismayed to find that a certain DAB radio ran batteries down in less than two hours( no big surprise here because we know that DAB uses far more power than FM) however suspecting that my top of the range Annsman batteries were not all they were cracked up to be I purchased (after a friend pointed me to it) A very inexpensive battery charger from Lidl!(around £5 with a set of batteries) Guess what? those same Ansman batteries gave me 8hrs running on the cheap charger and we are talking against Ansmans own £80 top of the range charger.

 

[onmebike]

I could refute every point you make in answer, for example everyone buys in container loads since that's the only way that e-bikes are sold ex-China.

However, rather than a back and forth argument on this, I'll just be patient and wait to see if SportsHQ are selling Cyclamatic in a year's time.

From past experience I doubt they will be, and I also think the Cyclamatic name might not be on the market then.
.

I suggest if your going to quote me please quote me correctly. I never said everyone buys in container loads or that its the only way that ebikes are sold, but those that do, can sell cheaper.

SportHq started selling Cyclamatic a year ago they recently added the folding model and intend adding more models. Cyclamatic may not be around in a years time but SportsHQ probably will be because they don't rely on ebikes alone. One thing is for sure, cheap ebikes will be around in one form or another because there are more people with £400 to spend than £2000.
I still say that no ebike warrants a price greater than a new 125/250cc motorcycle.
The component count of a motorcycle far exceeds that of an ebike. The assembly time is greater and the shipping weight is far greater at 150kg+.