Cycling in London (again)....

[Woosh]

Driving up to London yesterday at peak time - 8am.
Longish cycle path along the A127 between Ilford and Wanstead.
Look in my left hand mirror and see one after the other 3 motor bikes all zooming along the cycle path at around 40 mph. Nuts or what?
Late afternoon had the chance to sit in the Kings Road Chelsea (don't ask) for an hour, so spent it watching cycling habits. Firstly, almost everyone (I would say 90%) had a helmet. 10% wore masks. Most cycled quite fast and kept well to the left - but again, about 10% didn't. The 10% who didn't chose to 'weave' between cars - including one guy with a young girl (7 years old maybe?) sitting on his lap! One or two weavers nearly caused accidents with other cyclists and motor cyclists . This was all in the space of an hour in a small corner of the capital.
Must have seen at least 150 bikes. Around 20% were Boris, 60% standard road bikes of all shapes and sizes, 20% folding (all Dahons, no Bromptons). Not a single electric bike though.
My thoughts are: why no electric bikes and how would electric bikes affect safety?

 

[flecc]

My thoughts are: why no electric bikes and how would electric bikes affect safety?

Did you notice the cycling speeds though Hatti? Living in a London borough I notice that a high proportion of the commuters race along at 20 mph or even more. That makes a 15 mph assist e-bike worse than an unpowered one, no assist but lots more weight.
.

 

[axolotl]

Well, this is the thing. London is so flat that 15mph is easily attainable most of the time, without power assist. Not sure I'd bother with an ebike if I live anywhere as flat as that.

I think the factor that makes the biggest difference in a big city is getting more people on bike - when the number of cyclists reaches a critical mass, motorists become a lot more compliant and careful.

 

[Woosh]

Yes, you are right. Most were zipping along at, I would say, getting on for 20mph, a few slower and a few probably faster , even, than that. Do you think that the speed limitation of the ebike has something to do with their apparent lack of popularity in London then?I also noticed that the vast majority of cyclists - I would say 80% - were young - under 35, mostly. This age group buys far fewer e bikes than say 45 to 60 year olds so I am guessing that has something to do with it. Never been to Amsterdam but I'm sure things are very different..

 

[trex]

pink e-Bromptons would expand the number of women cyclists in cities like London.

 

[axolotl]

Never been to Amsterdam but I'm sure things are very different..

I've spent a fair bit of time in the Netherlands and I've only seen a couple of eBikes there. Again, for the most part, it's a very flat country. With that kind of terrain, pretty much anyone can get up to 15mph under their own steam.

No, where I'd expect to find a lot of ebikes (or potential ebike customers) are in the hilly or mountainous parts of the world.

 

[flecc]

You astonish me Axolotl, in the Netherlands as many as 1 on 6 of all bikes sold are e-bikes. Sales are over 300,000 a year to a population of just 22 millions. That's ten times ours to one third of our population On the ground there's something like an e-bike for every eleven men, women and children and bike shops stock numbers of pedelecs in a variety of models. With 70% cycling, on average probably something like every seventh cyclist is now on an e-bike.

One reason they are so popular there is the fearsome winds on the polders, a common problem over large flat areas where the terrain doesn't impede the wind. Those in our eastern counties also know that flat area problem well. There's plenty of e-bikes there also, including some well known members and the founder of this forum.

I live in a very hilly area and e-bikes are as rare as hens teeth here. I have never seen one being ridden in my 47 years living here, only one parked and one being pushed. Others in hilly areas have posted the same. Why that is I don't know, but I suspect that the hill climbing ability of most e-bikes disappoints. As we see here from new entrants, they often ask for an e-bike which will take them up steep hills without pedalling.
.

 

[flecc]

Do you think that the speed limitation of the ebike has something to do with their apparent lack of popularity in London then?I also noticed that the vast majority of cyclists - I would say 80% - were young - under 35, mostly. This age group buys far fewer e bikes than say 45 to 60 year olds so I am guessing that has something to do with it.

The assist speeds have featured in the CTC forums and many of the commuting types are keen cyclists. Some will also have tried an e-bike, given quite a few London outlets, so I think it's a consideration.

Age is definitely a big factor, this forum illustrates it with only 20% under 40. Of the remaining 80%, a very high proportion will have retired so will not be seen commuting.
.

 

[silverdream]

One of the main reasons why electric bikes are few and far between in London and I assume many other cities is because they cost so much. For example, your occasional cyclist on the cycle-to-work scheme will purchase a bike between £400 - £800. The more experienced, die hard cyclists will tend to push the boat out and spend up to £1500, which is considered a lot for a bike! I have a Kalkhoff Pro Connect S 2012 model and if you hypothetically strip away the motor and battery it's a 1200 quid bike at a push! The motors (Panasonic) costing ~£800 and batteries are being sold at super exorbitant prices, ranging from £399 - £700 which is scandalous! Speed is another deciding factor. I personally think the 15mph restriction is another big mistake. I mean, what's the point!?! Restricted e-bikes are only good for hills in my books. Most EU directives are bad for the UK, but I'd like to see the EU directive on e-bikes thrust upon the UK, since unrestricted bikes in the continent are allowed. It's the only good EU directive that's come out of Brussels in a long time!

 

[JohnCade]

Well, this is the thing. London is so flat that 15mph is easily attainable most of the time, without power assist. Not sure I'd bother with an ebike if I live anywhere as flat as that.

I think the factor that makes the biggest difference in a big city is getting more people on bike - when the number of cyclists reaches a critical mass, motorists become a lot more compliant and careful.

Lots of people think that but it's only central London and the Thames valley which is flat. I used to push bike fairly locally in North London for a while. But most of my cycling was on road trainers for fitness, and I rode around Hertfordshire and through the outer London rat runs.

If I lived in Shepherd's Bush and wanted to bike to W1 for work I wouldn't bother with an e bike even now at my age let alone when I was younger.

 

[axolotl]

You astonish me Axolotl, in the Netherlands as many as 1 on 6 of all bikes sold are e-bikes. Sales are over 300,000 a year to a population of just 22 millions.
.

Not half as astonished as I am, flecc. I was in North Holland only a couple of months ago and I only saw one ebike over a two week stay (we saw it in Haarlem, incidentally). Before that, I was in Amsterdam in January and I think we saw two.

Personally, I have to agree with silverdream, ebikes really come into their own in hilly areas. I'd not have considered one myself if I was still living in and around flat-ish terrain. Having said that, I was fond of my bike *before* I moved to a very hilly area so I don't mind putting a bit of effort in. It's just the 1:3 and 1:4 hills I baulk at.

 

[flecc]

The motors (Panasonic) costing ~£800 and batteries are being sold at super exorbitant prices, ranging from £399 - £700 which is scandalous! _ _ _ _ _ I'd like to see the EU directive on e-bikes thrust upon the UK, since unrestricted bikes in the continent are allowed. It's the only good EU directive that's come out of Brussels in a long time!

Steady Silverdream, substantial exaggeration there.

The retail replacement cost of the Panasonic crank units is typically £500 in the UK and €500 in mainland Europe, certainly not £800. If someone wants to charge you that, tell them where to go. Lithium batteries in our UK retail market start at about £220 and most are under £500. It's mainly some German batteries and very high capacity batteries that are much more expensive.

And unrestricted e-bikes are not allowed at all on the continent. In Germany alone the L1e class two wheelers are permitted which look like e-bikes, but it is in fact a moped class with registration, insurance and many other restrictions. No other government in the EU have accepted the same.

In mainland Europe the term e-bike is not generally used, there they are pedelecs and strictly limited to 25 kph (15.6 mph), controlled solely by pedalling and with no throttles allowed.
.

 

[jackhandy]

Restricted e-bikes are only good for hills in my books.

Got it in one!

 

[jhruk]

City cycling always seems so much more relaxed in the Netherlands than it does here, as I think this video demonstrates:

Not too many pedelecs, or helmets, in this edit.

 

[flecc]

City cycling always seems so much more relaxed in the Netherlands than it does here, as I think this video demonstrates:

Not too many pedelecs, or helmets, in this edit.

But what sensible bikes they are, upright, comfortable, mudguards, sound carriers and panniers, thoroughly practical, as is not wearing a helmet. And the kids are as practical, noticed a teenager riding a Kudos Duke style twin crossbar traditional bike with a front carrier and completely relaxed and unselfconcious. Offer that to one of our overly style conscious kids and they wouldn't be seen dead on it..

But anyway, what hope do we have of emulating with our regulation obsessed, bossy, opinionated and interfering police? Can you imagine how they'd react to all those riding side saddle on bike carriers? In London recently they even had the nerve to stop a cycling parent because his kid on board was not wearing a helmet, absolutely none of their business. Were any of those little Dutch kids in carrier seats wearing them in that video? No of course not. For all the Dutch, cycling is just an alternative to walking, needing no more preparation that that.
.

 

[neptune]

What a truly uplifting video,it cheered me up anyway. Most of the riders look happy as well. As flecc says, the rear carriers are substantial enough to carry a passenger no trouble. I know that many of the people on the video will be making short journeys, but it stuck me that many of the riders, especially women, were riding with their seats too low, in that their legs are far from straight at bottom dead center. Maybe those "drop post" adjustable seat posts that we recently discussed would be of benefit here. I notice a lot of "low riding" women locally as well.

 

[john h]

And did you notice nearly all hub gears.

 

[flecc]

What a truly uplifting video,it cheered me up anyway. Most of the riders look happy as well.

Me too, and how I'd love that uplifting experience of seeing all those relaxed and happy cycling people on a daily basis here in London. What I see instead is all to often grim-faced, helmeted, lycra clad wannabee race cyclists flying along as if their lives depended on it. Barmy.
.

 

[JohnCade]

Their lives probably do depend on it. Not very relaxing cycling in London at the best of times. I moved away from there a decade and a half ago but I don't think it's changed much in that regard.

 

[flecc]

It hasn't changed much John, apart from having many more cyclists now, but I don't see how they need to cycle like that, they make it tense. I don't and have never done in London. I'm more like the Dutch, normal street clothes, no helmet, utility bikes, sensible speeds and taking in all the surroundings as I cycle, and that applied with my past unpowered cycling as well. Out in the countryside I used to enjoy the occasional fitness workout, especially up challenging hills, but that was very much the exception, most mileage much more leisurely.

And of course I've never had the accidents the speed merchants so often graphically describe, I've no desire to overtake the handlebars.
.