Cycling in London (again)....

[jackhandy]

And did you notice nearly all hub gears.

That's 'cause it's Flat!

 

[flecc]

But just as much because they don't like to spend time fiddling with adjustments on a utility vehicle. They just want to be able to get on and ride, day after day with no trouble, and at their leisurely speeds and low effort input, the bikes really do last for years.
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[mike killay]

The upright handlebars and low saddle positions are very noticeable.
The Dutch know far more about bikes than we do and have been riding all their lives.
They seem to be doing about 10-12 mph and quite relaxed.
We do not need to pay a lot of attention to what the lycras say unless we want to go fast.

 

[Blew it]

The upright handlebars and low saddle positions are very noticeable.
The Dutch know far more about bikes than we do and have been riding all their lives.
They seem to be doing about 10-12 mph and quite relaxed.
We do not need to pay a lot of attention to what the lycras say unless we want to go fast.

Couldn't agree more Mike. I get sick and tired of being lectured about my saddle set for a tip-toe touchdown whilst seated. The simple fact is, since returning to cycling my knees are now far better than they were seven years ago, and never more so than immediately after a twenty mile ride. The purist attitude makes even less sense when applied to electric bikes, all of which are just about as impure as impure can get.

Did you notice on that video, almost every bike had grossly underinflated tyres.

 

[flecc]

Did you notice on that video, almost every bike had grossly underinflated tyres.

Yes, like I remarked they don't want to be fiddling with their bikes, they just ride them. I wouldn't be surprised if they never inflate but leave that to the bike shop on their rare visits to one for a repair.
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[jackhandy]

I get sick and tired of being lectured about my saddle set for a tip-toe touchdown whilst seated. :

Ok _ So that's probably offended most of the regular riders on here.
Personally, I only try to help When I'm Asked; but probably best to shutup & get over to the CTC forum.

 

[JohnCade]

Very different cycling environment and culture in Holland. It's one thing pootling along on a big heavy bike in a flat city where the street furniture and road layout is designed to calm traffic and make it safe for cycling and pedestrians - and pedestrians must be considered here too, because in London too many cowboys jump up and down the kerbs and pavements like circus trick cyclists and go fast, scattering walkers - not all of them dispatch riders either. But it's another thing in most of our cities where the car is king and the main interest of road planners is to move traffic as quickly as possible between bottlenecks.

That is very much the case in London where Johnson for all he likes to be seen on a bike has been mainly interested in keeping the traffic moving, and many changes done on his watch to road layouts have made cycling less safe instead of safer. This according to many people who still live and cycle there and who post on cycle pages.

I remember well from my time there the painted three quarters of a metre wide cycle lanes, which stopped suddenly after funneling you into the middle of a mini Hanger Lane gyratory system. The attitude was that bikes only travel at eight to ten miles an hour so those lanes are perfectly adequate; and some policemen even told cyclists to stay off the road and use the things.

They should at least pump their bloody tyres up in Holland though.....

 

[Blew it]

Ok _ So that's probably offended most of the regular riders on here.
Personally, I only try to help When I'm Asked; but probably best to shutup & get over to the CTC forum.

Eh!

You lost me there, us moonrakers are a bit thick you see

 

[axolotl]

The upright handlebars and low saddle positions are very noticeable.
The Dutch know far more about bikes than we do and have been riding all their lives.
They seem to be doing about 10-12 mph and quite relaxed.
We do not need to pay a lot of attention to what the lycras say unless we want to go fast.

This, exactly.

In the UK, cycling exists primarily as a sport, not a method of transport. To that end, practically the entire industry is geared up to cater for the sporting person, with finicky derailleur gears, crazy arse-in-the-air riding positions and superlight bikes.

 

[Black Dog]

Were any of those little Dutch kids in carrier seats wearing them in that video? No of course not. For all the Dutch, cycling is just an alternative to walking, needing no more preparation that that.
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Back in the 90s I did a fabulous touring holiday (by push-bike) in the Netherlands. (Possibly the best holiday I have ever had.) One sight which has stayed with me was a young Dutch mum on a proper Dutch bike, with a large child in a seat on the back, a younger child on a seat in front of her, a baby in a papoose across her chest, and a buggy carried archery-style across her back. She was sailing across four lanes of traffic in Arnhem town centre, totally confident, not a care in the world, while the cars gave way and two Brit tourists stood watching her and saying 'Wow'.

The point is, they all learned to ride almost before they learned to walk, everyone from children to grannies cycles everywhere and, crucially, that includes all the car drivers.

 

[timidtom]

One day Bridge Street in Warrington will look like this ... perhaps.

 

[axolotl]

The point is, they all learned to ride almost before they learned to walk, everyone from children to grannies cycles everywhere and, crucially, that includes all the car drivers.

That's certainly a big part of it. Another important factor, however, is civil liability in the case of an accident: in bike-car collisions, the motorists is assumed to be at fault unless they can prove otherwise. The result is a nation of *much* more careful drivers.

Whenever I've suggested that greater bike use may follow here if we were to introduce the same rules, it's invariably been met with a chorus of bleating from motorists.

 

[flecc]

The point is, they all learned to ride almost before they learned to walk, everyone from children to grannies cycles everywhere and, crucially, that includes all the car drivers.

Some while ago I read a short history of cycling in The Netherlands post World War 2, and it seems they were following the same path as us at one point. Just as we did in the 1960s and '70s, they were switching to all car driving at a rapid rate and cycling was in sharp decline.

The crucial difference then was that the Dutch government saw the danger and acted promptly, ever since building much of the superb cycling infrastructure that we see today. Their action was just in time, before the growing car infrastructure took over everywhere. The success of that action since shows that infrastructure is the key, all else like legal change is just assisting the process.

We missed the boat, our greatly expanded motor vehicle roads infrastructure now totally dominates and would be very difficult to deconstruct. That, combined with three times the Dutch population, lack of national space and narrow, confined Victorian city streets, makes achieving anything remotely comparable now impossible. It would bankrupt us, since it would require demolition on an immense scale of buildings etc, including housing that we are already desperately short of.

Car driving is now completely ingrained in our national psyche, just as it is in nearly all of the USA, a country we seem more attached and aligned to than Europe. Therefore I don't see any realistic chance of appreciable change, since no government can spend the vast sums needed from the taxation of a motoring population who generally dislike cyclists. It would be electoral suicide, so painted lines are all we are likely to get for decades.
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[jhruk]

Some while ago I read a short history of cycling in The Netherlands post World War 2, and it seems they were following the same path as us at one point. Just as we did in the 1960s and '70s, they were switching to all car driving at a rapid rate and cycling was in sharp decline.
.

This video covers that history quite well:

 

[axolotl]

Flecc - you're right about how the current situation came to be but I don't share your pessimism about our ability to change it. If there's one thing that video shows, it's that the Dutch had to fight for their right to cycle safely.

There's nothing so very different about the country - in many ways it's actually very similar to the UK with a high population density (actually quite a bit higher than the UK) and lots of old towns and cities with narrow streets. What you find is that, in many cases, they didn't knock down lots of buildings to make separate roadways for cars and bikes, they simply changed the priority: cars have to share a narrow strip down the middle whilst the cyclists enjoy nice, wide lanes down either side.

In any case, it's ridiculous to suggest that we can complete projects like the Crossrail, the Channel Tunnel and HS2 and at the same time suggest that creating a good cycling network would "bankrupt" us. Even considering the infrastructure costs, there is the huge economic benefit that would result from creating such infrastructure. What's more, it would greatly increase our nation's energy security, which isn't an issue on many people's radar right now, but it should be, and it certainly will be in a few years time.

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the video jhruk, it does indeed cover that history well.

One thing I omitted from my post above is a vital factor in why the Dutch took to cycling on the new infrastructure so readily, their very flat land making for leisurely, sweat free cycling.

Those wonderful separated cycleways going up our often steep hills would not produce anything like the same result!
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[flecc]

Flecc - you're right about how the current situation came to be but I don't share your pessimism about our ability to change it. If there's one thing that video shows, it's that the Dutch had to fight for their right to cycle safely.

There's nothing so very different about the country - in many ways it's actually very similar to the UK with a high population density (actually quite a bit higher than the UK) and lots of old towns and cities with narrow streets. What you find is that, in many cases, they didn't knock down lots of buildings to make separate roadways for cars and bikes, they simply changed the priority: cars have to share a narrow strip down the middle whilst the cyclists enjoy nice, wide lanes down either side.

In any case, it's ridiculous to suggest that we can complete projects like the Crossrail, the Channel Tunnel and HS2 and at the same time suggest that creating a good cycling network would "bankrupt" us. Even considering the infrastructure costs, there is the huge economic benefit that would result from creating such infrastructure. What's more, it would greatly increase our nation's energy security, which isn't an issue on many people's radar right now, but it should be, and it certainly will be in a few years time.

I disagree. What is very different is first, when they acted, before the motor vehicle had taken over so completely. Second the width of their city roads, continental fashion and commonly much wider than ours, leaving much room for change. Their narrow streets have often not changed at all, I remember one video posted by a member showing a narrow street situation there shared in a very scary way by cyclists and cars, as bad as anything I've ever seen here. One should not be fooled by the photos and videos of the best, it's far from being all like that. I've posted here some photos of excellent UK facilities and others have posted similar videos.

It is not in any way ridiculous to say that to match what the Dutch have would bankrupt us. First you've ignored what that video said, the huge increase in wealth of the Dutch at the time of the changes. Our position currently is completely the opposite, trying to keep our heads above water while living on an ever increasing debt which we struggle to even stop growing. Second, you grossly underestimate the cost of what would be necessary to match them, across the country it would completely dwarf that of all the projects you mentioned.

And you've ignored the political reality that I've mentioned. There are limits to what any government can do in opposition to the population, you won't get hordes out on our streets demonstrating. Our child road deaths are miniscule, pro rata matching the Dutch current figures, and our parents are happy to carry their kids about in cars and consider that safest. The mass of our car owning population are anti-cycling and cyclists, and a majority of our parents won't even let their kids cycle on our roads.

All in all there is no comparison with The Netherlands, past and present.

Finally, to inject some reality that all is not so perfect for the Dutch, on the roads they still kill on average double the number of cyclists we do each year, and their road deaths are currently 29.5 per million of population, ours in the UK are 27.2
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[JohnCade]

I

Finally, to inject some reality that all is not so perfect for the Dutch, on the roads they still kill on average double the number of cyclists we do each year, and their road deaths are currently 29.5 per million of population, ours in the UK are 27.2
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Of course they have a lot more cyclists that us. Statistics and damned..... The number of road deaths per thousand of cyclists would be the only meaningful comparison.

In the long run the oil and the prosperity will run out and we will get back to a simpler lifestyle. Or the survivors will anyway. Of course "in the long run we'll all be dead."

But the long run has already started and it's picking up speed.

 

[flecc]

Of course they have a lot more cyclists that us. Statistics and damned..... The number of road deaths per thousand of cyclists would be the only meaningful comparison.
.

Of course, and I wouldn't attempt to hide that. But as shown, The Netherlands falls short of us overall in road deaths on a pro rata basis, putting talk of their careful drivers into perspective. Clearly our drivers are even better, since they hardly ever have the benefit of cyclists being separated onto their own segregated cycleways and our general road conditions are far worse than in The Netherlands.

While not being complacent, we should be proud of that.
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[JohnCade]

I would guess that the main reason for the higher overall number of road deaths in Holland is the high number of cyclists. However hard the authorities there try to create a safe environment, an RTA on a bike is more likely to kill you than being in one in a car.