Cyclist critical after attack

Tim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2006
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78
London
This isn't good
BBC NEWS | England | Surrey | Cyclist 'critical' after attack

A cyclist has been left in a critical condition after being attacked by four youths while he was out riding.
Surrey Police said the 39-year-old man suffered serious head injuries during the assault in Cox Lane, West Ewell, at about 2130 BST on Tuesday.
He was taken to St George's Hospital in Tooting, south-west London, where his condition was described as critical.
Officers said his attackers were thought to be aged in their late teens or early 20s.
They have appealed for anyone with information to contact them.

A few miles from where I'm sitting, not exactly the ghetto. Idiots.
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
one issue I notice (not just in the London suburbs either) is many roads / paths have had barriers/pinch points inserted to keep out mini motos or even rat-running motorists - these areas create situations where a cyclist can be delayed and attacked...

Otherwise its easy to leave such potential threats way behind at 15+mph, particularly on an ebike.. but this risk (described as "Clockwork Orange" violence) is mentioned in Richard ballantynes cycling books and they came out around the time I was born...
 

Bigbee

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 12, 2008
445
1
It could of been a cyclist or pedestrian who came into the path of drugged and/or drunken youths.This is a blight on our modern society,I certainly watch where I go at night these days.I wont walk any where at night as you never know whats around the corner.The areas dont have to be ghettos like Tim said.We've an estate near us with £500,000 plus houses on it.Recently it was plagued with anti social behaviour.One guy in his 50's stabbed the gang leader with a letter opener to try to stop them kicking his 18 year old stepson on the floor.The 50 year old is up for attempted murder,the youths are free to go.It was in the national papers you may of seen it.
 

Straylight

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Jan 31, 2009
650
2
I fear this is evidence of the 'lost generation' Alistair Darling was refering to when interviewed yesterday about the growing number of young adults neither in training/education or employment. Having lived in London for the best part of 20yrs, I've frequently seen kids who're obviously out looking for anything to trigger themselves into violence.

The best defence I've learned is to not appear vulnerable, walk with your head up, don't avoid eye contact, but make sure you don't hold it (a glance is enough). Also try to maintain a relaxed, purposeful, confident body language, to give the impression that you're aware of the presence of others, but not intimidated in the least. It's like a self defence expert I saw on TV once said, "a shark is out looking for the weakest fish", they rarely attack other sharks.

I have to say though that one of the reasons I left London was that I was simply tired of having to continualy wear masks just to go about my daily buisiness.
 
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Footie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 16, 2007
549
10
Cornwall. PL27
It could of been a cyclist or pedestrian who came into the path of drugged and/or drunken youths.This is a blight on our modern society,I certainly watch where I go at night these days.I wont walk any where at night as you never know whats around the corner.The areas dont have to be ghettos like Tim said.We've an estate near us with £500,000 plus houses on it.Recently it was plagued with anti social behaviour.One guy in his 50's stabbed the gang leader with a letter opener to try to stop them kicking his 18 year old stepson on the floor.The 50 year old is up for attempted murder,the youths are free to go.It was in the national papers you may of seen it.
It's the asinine laws of this country, where to defend your self is questionable. With coppers riding around in cars all day oblivious to what’s going on at street level, who can Joe Public turn to in their hour of need.
Where property owners are told that "Your signs and bollards were not securely installed" and youths go scott free after hanging on the signs/bollards (with all their weight) to rip them off the wall and out of their mountings.
Where youths climb on roofs and cause £500 worth of damage to cable operated roof windows (faces on cctv) but the police can't be bothered to follow it up with even a house call.
I have personally chased two youths away from our cars at 2am in the morning with a 2ft length of 2x2 .... Would I have used it .... Yes I bloody would have.
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Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
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Ipswich
There is still a right of self defence in this country - which often is successfully used especially by the older generation (even with the use of weapons and firearms) but the main reason males are often initially arrested for defending themselves is due to a perception by cops/criminal justice system that every male from age 10-70 enjoys conflict, aggression and even a physical fight, and would willingly start up a vigilanté mob given half the chance, whether or not this is true.

Its perhaps more of an indictment on the pysches of cops and judges who obviously thrive on conflict as a main part of their job as well as negative sterotypes of males, plus old style stereotypes of "queensbury rules". The older man would been more likely to have got away with punching the thug to the ground but using a bladed instrument is going to be more problematic...

Unfortunately though in an increasing number of cases the victims are not weaklings and are big strong men what have tried to defend themselves and have simply been overpowered. Its easy enough to get rid of two assailants with or without a weapon. Its a lot harder to deal with 10 of them who are prepared to fight back. its normally only in movies where people win in these fight situations...

When I lived in Reading a work colleagues friend was done over this way. The injuries he sustained from people as young as 15 cost him his place in the SAS - he was already a serving soldier who had already been shortlisted. This might give you an idea of the mans physical stature..
 
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Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
one issue I notice (not just in the London suburbs either) is many roads / paths have had barriers/pinch points inserted to keep out mini motos or even rat-running motorists - these areas create situations where a cyclist can be delayed and attacked...

Otherwise its easy to leave such potential threats way behind at 15+mph, particularly on an ebike.. but this risk (described as "Clockwork Orange" violence) is mentioned in Richard ballantynes cycling books and they came out around the time I was born...
The Sustrans routes I use are very bad for this, quiet rarely used paths that kids like to congregate on with loads of obstructions. Woolwich is pretty bad, one of the local achievers walked in front of me last week to throw some scaffolding into the Thames. One of my routes takes me through the Estate used in Clockwork Orange and I've had a woman turn round and hiss at me there, very odd place. There's another approved cycle route that I took once through Abbey Wood and I won't use it again in case I get a puncture and have to stop for a few minutes.
Most of the time I'm moving quickly and present a fairly imposing image, not as good as a police horse but a similar thing. Drunks aren't usually any threat unless they fall in front of me but too many people have a chip on their shoulder about anyone who looks happier than they are.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
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We sometimes say of these young thugs that they are animals, and that highlights how important it is for us to know how to deal with them to avoid attack. Nobody likes being the target of offensive behaviour, but far too many people react to it and quite unnecessarily make themselves into victims, and it seems in this case that there may have been an altercation.

In many parts of the world people have to deal with dangerous animals, even in Europe, for example Romania where bears etc still enter country towns and villages. On those occasions when they show aggression the locals know how to avoid confrontation and give way, never for one moment putting pride before self preservation.

And that's what urban dwellers must learn to do when confronted by the species of aggressive animals resident in their areas to prevent these stupid and often catastrophic outcomes. Pride, standing up for what is right, returning the aggression in any kind may seem the actions of the righteous and brave, but in reality they are the actions of the stupid. The better course is to learn to be streetwise and know exactly how to deal with potentially threatening situations. How that's done differs for each individual, since we all have our own particular style of people skills, some may prefer obsequiousness by giving way for example, I almost always deal with such situations face to face with friendly humour, the weapon I can handle best.

I've had plenty of practice, previously living in Inner London and for the last forty years plus surrounded by three council estates, one of them nationally notorious and still producing well over it's share of violence. In one month alone not long ago the borough had eight murders, four of them immediately surrounding in my locale, and I have a number of accounts of where I've got out of nasty situations, including once a direct threat to knife me by an armed young thug in a barely lit area at night. Believe it or not, we ended up strolling along together and chatting as we both headed for our respective homes. Many would disagree with showing such friendship to someone of that nature, but they would be the ones who get hurt when threatened with attack, I wasn't.

For these incidents to become rare, it's only necessary for everyone to learn the skills necessary for survival in the particular kind of jungle they live in.
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Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
How that's done differs for each individual, since we all have our own particular style of people skills, some may prefer obsequiousness by giving way for example, I almost always deal with such situations face to face with friendly humour, the weapon I can handle best.
This may well work for the middle aged or older when faced with a much younger threat - there isn't much "street cred" in attacking an old man who has shown no aggression, and is also unlikely to have a mobile phone or Ipod or any property worth stealing!

I used to live in the nearly the same area Mussels is in (although I spent more time in Eltham, Lewisham and Catford but on foot). Whilst it was possible in 1990-1992 (for a younger person) to talk and joke your way out of trouble (and it was going downhill then) nowadays this would be seen as "disrespect" and would invite violence... if you look the same age group as your potential assailant(s) (and I can easily pass for a lot younger than a man in his thirties) they see you as fair game and it makes more sense to act like Straylight but also avoid excessive interaction and have an "escape route" planned.

it also makes sense to keep out of "shoving distance" from passing cars in some areas....

My point about street layouts is that normally the cyclist has a tactical advantage as he or she can put speed and distance between themselves and potential attackers - but many areas (not just London) have created danger spots to cyclists by the use of barriers/posts where they are forced to slow down in an area where people hang around..
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
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That mistake yet again, I haven't always been old Alex! :D

Born in Central London (Soho), for many of my younger years I've lived in Inner London, mainly in and around Streatham, Balham and Tooting, and spent loads of time in Clapham, Battersea, Bermondsey etc due to having many friends in those areas. Things haven't changed so much, that knife attack threat was in Tooting when I was in my twenties, and I disagree that one cannot use verbal skills and humour to get out of trouble.

I think you're making the mistake I pointed to of treating all of us as alike. We aren't, we all have differing skills and what works for me may well not work for you. Likewise, your skills and methods probably won't suit me. What matters is that each of us learns to use our own skills to good effect which is what I've already said above, and I can't see how anyone can disagree with that.

Fundamentally all thats needed is access to a vulnerability in the potential assailant, and fortunately for us, every one of the 6.5 billion people on this planet has one vulnerability common to all. Do you know what that is?
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Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
That mistake yet again, I haven't always been old Alex! :D

Born in Central London (Soho), for many of my younger years I've lived in Inner London, mainly in and around Streatham, Balham and Tooting, and spent loads of time in Clapham, Battersea, Bermondsey etc due to having many friends in those areas. Things haven't changed so much, that knife attack threat was in Tooting when I was in my twenties, and I disagree that one cannot use verbal skills and humour to get out of trouble.
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you mentioned it shortly after the recent murders on your estate, which did make it look like it was a recent incident...however if it were in your youth that would have been around the 1950s.

I had somewhere a very interesting book called "The Insecure Offenders" which discussed the crime rates and the gang culture in London and the SE around that area, which was as almost as bad as todays, there was theft, vandalism and gangs but certainly seemed to be a bit less random violence and much more of a reluctance to actually use deadly weapons and murder on a whim - although there were plenty of such weapons about including pistols!

I had a similar incident in Reading in the 1980s and talked the guy out of it but I think the fact we went to high school together and that he wasn't that serious in the first place about attacking me made a difference.

However some of todays youth genuinely are serious about hurting or killing someone and no amount of banter will stop them, it will only inflame them. its a small minority but a significant one... I am fairly young looking and a lot of my friends are in their 20s - I still ocassionaly go to raves and such events and whilst these used to be happy fun events there is now always a undercurrent of simmering tensions and that wasn't there when I first started raving in the 1990s.. (the whole idea of the scene was to get away from drink-related violence in commercial nightclubs)

Things may not have changed all that much but I still do feel it has got worse in in very recent times - I am talking the last 15 years or so and this is despite an increase in Police numbers, an increase in surveillance, and increase in successful Court convictions for violence and an increase in prison tarrifs for more serious crimes. What I see today however is not quite a wholesale decline in society but simply a return to the street scenes of the 1980s when gangs of young men roamed the streets wanting to stake claims on their territories and the only way to stop them was believed to be the "Life on Mars" style of policing as well as a certain amount of tolerated vigilanté activity from "decent family men"....

another thing I have experienced again is casual racism from strangers in the street, which was rare during the better times of the 1990s..
 
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AndyOfTheSouth

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2009
347
4
Some very interesting contributions here - eg Straylight's comment on the degree of eye contact to use.

Flecc - please tell us about the vulnerability to which you refer! Also, it would be very good to know in detail what happened when you avoided the conflict and ended up walking with your would be assailant. I can imagine such an outcome - but not the way it was achieved...

Strategies for dealing with potentially dangerous encounters, especially once they have started, might be of genuine value- particularly if they are counter intuitive or counter instinctive.

Thanks!
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
Strategies for dealing with potentially dangerous encounters, especially once they have started, might be of genuine value- particularly if they are counter intuitive or counter instinctive.

Thanks!
one suggested is to speed up but ride in such a way that you are prepared to mow down one or more of the agressors - at least this way you have the weight advantage and will take down at least one of them with you - and even if the cops did turn you over it could be explained away as a road traffic incident with a smaller penalty than a violent crime.. in most cases the assailants survival instincts will take over and they will move out of the way.

I tend to keep a distance between myself and any youths late at night - not that in Ipswich (a relatively safe town) they pose so much of a threat to me but many are drunk or stoned / high, don't realise that I am going quite fast and may jaywalk into my path! In most cases they are more frightened (and many are sheepish/apologetic), in other cases I've been cheered on as if I were in a race or something :D

I think its worth being wary of other young male cyclists in the evenings. Not so much due to risk of overt agression (this is rare) but many ride eratically, without lights and on badly maintained machines and present a risk (as much to themselves) of collisions..

if you have clear space and are on your bike you are much safer. How many yobs can sprint at 10mph any distance let alone 15mph to 20mph?
 
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Tim

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Nov 1, 2006
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London
What I see today however is not quite a wholesale decline in society but simply a return to the street scenes of the 1980s when gangs of young men roamed the streets wanting to stake claims on their territories
Yes, I'm picking this up as well. The 90s were an exceptional time, socially and culturally in the UK, compared to what was the norm before and is becoming the norm after. Very safe, tolerant, equitable and exciting. Maybe something to do with the pressure release at the end of the Cold War, plus the technology and social substructure that brought that about. Couldn't last though.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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30,849
you mentioned it shortly after the recent murders on your estate, which did make it look like it was a recent incident...however if it were in your youth that would have been around the 1950s.
It was the early 1960s Alex.

I had somewhere a very interesting book called "The Insecure Offenders" which discussed the crime rates and the gang culture in London and the SE around that area, which was as almost as bad as todays, there was theft, vandalism and gangs but certainly seemed to be a bit less random violence and much more of a reluctance to actually use deadly weapons and murder on a whim - although there were plenty of such weapons about including pistols!
With respect Alex, I'm not relying on books but on experience. See below later in my response to Andy of the South.

However some of todays youth genuinely are serious about hurting or killing someone and no amount of banter will stop them, it will only inflame them. its a small minority but a significant one...
Not banter Alex, that somewhat implies a lack of respect which you'll recognise is fatal. I have far more skill than to wind someone up with that. There's good humour which they can appreciate, humour that fits in with what they are doing and their culture, humour that can be expressed without offending and which they share in. It is often the sort of humour that so called "good" society wouldn't approve of, but it's a tool to do a job.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
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Flecc - please tell us about the vulnerability to which you refer!
The universal vulnerability is that everyone ever born wants to be loved, liked, respected, call it what you will. It's the one opening that's always there, it's only a matter of knowing how to exploit it. The most skilled salesmen do it all the time.

Also, it would be very good to know in detail what happened when you avoided the conflict and ended up walking with your would be assailant. I can imagine such an outcome - but not the way it was achieved...

Strategies for dealing with potentially dangerous encounters, especially once they have started, might be of genuine value- particularly if they are counter intuitive or counter instinctive.
You've accidentally hit the nail on the head with counter instinctive Andy.

With an apparent young nutter of around 18 in the darkness of a Tooting Bec Common path suddenly face to face with me and whipping out a large knife from the back of his belt and holding it against me, I did the ridiculous. I said with a big smile, "Hi, I'm Tony" and reached out to his free left hand and gave it a sort of handshake type squeeze. For what seemed ages he looked stupefied until I casually remarked how boring it was around the area! He relaxed and agreed, lowered the knife and backed off a bit, then remarked "You look as though you can handle yourself". I diffidently agreed in a way not to seem challenging, adding that he looked as though he could to. That was the crucial bit of praise that opened the door to the continuing conversation. I told him which way I was heading home, asked if that was his way too, so then we walked away together chatting. When we came to where we were heading different ways, I said it was good meeting him, got a "you too" in response and that was that.

There's background to all this though. I'd spent some years in the Army, all but one with rank including four as a sergeant handling the national service intakes which included all sorts of would be hard cases so had plenty of experience of handling "difficult" situations, particularly when the hard cases had been drinking.

Following that during my working years I did a total of 28 years in various chunks of voluntary work with young offenders, some independently and some with SOVA, on Home Office schemes and working in both formal and informal relationships with the Metropolitan Police L and Z divisions. Alex will probably recognise L division as covering some of those Inner London boroughs mentioned, Z division covering Croydon and district.

Since I also employed a couple of "clean" employees, I'm not revealing confidences in saying that for my last 18 working years I almost exclusively employed young offenders for all my manual vacancies including those out of custodial sentences and active heroin addicts. Contrary to popular ill-informed opinion, addicts are perfectly capable of living active useful lives of given the chance. Those young offenders handled up to £4 million of goods every year and my location had the best stock record in the company, almost perfect with no unexplained losses.

It follows from all this that I have considerable experience of handling the most difficult young people in our society. Although I gave up all the formal work of this kind when I retired, I have informally handled three local cases since, so I'm not exactly out of practice in this London borough.

This also explains why my friends in my 70s are all in their 30s to 50s, they are the successes leading useful lives, ex clients and ex employees from over the years, mostly living in those Inner London boroughs in which I still visit them. And shock, horror for some, my best friend is a life long heroin addict!

I've already taken up too much space in this forum with this somewhat off-subject discourse, but if you want two or three more examples of handling difficult situations involving the young, I'll happily post them in the Charging Post forum.
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AndyOfTheSouth

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2009
347
4
Fantastic post, Flecc. Yes, please do put the other stories in the Charging Post area. There is much food for thought here.

Andy
 

musicbooks

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2007
719
29
Great response Flecc and a very important message in there too.
DON'T EVER WRITE ANYONE OFF:mad:


"Respec' " as one says round your neck of the woods:)
bw
musicbooks

Looking forward to reading more on Charging Post