DfT Launches Consultations on Use of SPEVs

[monster]

a throttle is essential. How can you have electric bike conversion kits with out a throttle based system?

 

[Patrick]

a throttle is essential. How can you have electric bike conversion kits with out a throttle based system?

To comply the system would need a pedal sensor set up so that the motor cuts out if the rider stops pedaling. It's throttle only control that lets you ride without pedaling that's not allowed under the EU rules.

 

[dan]

This wasn't due to any representation or a concious decision by the DfT.

The British law permitting throttles was accidentally left on place instead of being rescinded when the civil service left enactment of the EU pedelecs law order to the last minute, rushing it through parliament on 10th November.

Here's the EU order, from which you'll see that we passed it into law one day late as a result of that rush. Note the words, "and abolish their previous regulation", the point on which our civil service failed:

Sorry you are wrong, I personaly sent in representation and spoke to the DfT in september 2001 along with many other people in the electric bike trade. I also had, along other members of the BSI bike standard committee, long discusions with the DfT representataive on that committee, and we were told by him that no changes would be made to the road traffic act. That is were we are now, and the DfT are, even now, saying they have the option to do nothing, that would not be the situation if they were compelled to change the road traffic act.

Strong representation from the electric bike trade can still halt these changes.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I agree that 350W / 17mph would be a good compromise between speed, power and battery range. Incidentally if this were allowed, would this be available as an upgrade to an existing 905?

Certainly Alex!

All the best

David

 

[Alex728]

Strong representation from the electric bike trade can still halt these changes.

Although I am in no way one of those extreme-right anti-EU nuts I'm sure that all EU nations still have (or will take) some sort of veto against their national legislation/standards being changed on a whim from Brussels without reference to local issues, and even if Brussels is trying to remove this I think many nations (not just UK) would collectively protest.

After all each nations road traffic laws also take into account safety considerations caused by individual infrastructure differences, such as how small mopeds are allowed on cycle paths in some EU nations but there is stricter rules on the max speed and power of these mopeds (and these rules are actually enforced).

Surely if that were not the case, we in the UK would be plugging in all our bike chargers into Schuko/Europlug sockets already, our road signs would be in km/h or km and we'd be riding on the other side of the road?

 

[flecc]

Sorry you are wrong, I personaly sent in representation and spoke to the DfT in september 2001 along with many other people in the electric bike trade. I also had, along other members of the BSI bike standard committee, long discusions with the DfT representataive on that committee, and we were told by him that no changes would be made to the road traffic act. That is were we are now, and the DfT are, even now, saying they have the option to do nothing, that would not be the situation if they were compelled to change the road traffic act.

Strong representation from the electric bike trade can still halt these changes.

I do understand that representations were made, but the EU order was both clear and legal and the civil service neglected to obey the order to abolish existing legislation by 9th November 2003. After all, that was long after those representations.

Obviously the DfT seem to be continuing to defy that order, but I cannot understand how they think there was and is a legal option to do nothing, since they did pass the EU order into law.

They have been consistent meanwhile in saying that it's the British law that counts, but in view of the fact that nearly all the product on the UK market doesn't comply with British law since it's nearly all 250 watts, their position has produced a ridiculous situation of widespread illegality under either legislation.
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[Alex728]

Obviously the DfT seem to be continuing to defy that order, but I cannot understand how they think there was and is a legal option to do nothing, since they did pass the EU order into law.

They have been consistent meanwhile in saying that it's the British law that counts, but in view of the fact that nearly all the product on the UK market doesn't comply with British law since it's nearly all 250 watts, their position has produced a ridiculous situation of widespread illegality under either legislation.
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true, but I expect with continuing anti-EU sentiment they feel they can get away with this whatever the colour of government (perhaps more so should it shift to the right later this year).

What would be the penalties anyway? I know that with Defra and agricultural benefits a country could get "disallowed" if they didn't follow the rules and then the bit of EU tax their citizens paid out for subsidies got "confiscated" (although usually the disagreements were sorted out and the money later returned). Maybe the amounts at risk aren't that much with roads (do the EU fund any of our roads?) so there's no risk in "breaking the rules"...

 

[flecc]

What would be the penalties anyway? I know that with Defra and agricultural benefits a country could get "disallowed" if they didn't follow the rules and then the bit of EU tax their citizens paid out for subsidies got "confiscated" (although usually the disagreements were sorted out and the money later returned). Maybe the amounts at risk aren't that much with roads (do the EU fund any of our roads?) so there's no risk in "breaking the rules"...

An EU country can be fined for non compliance, and I don't think they have any limits to the fines as some commercial organisations have found to their cost.

I believe there has been some trunk road funding from the EU in the past.
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[tonio]

I have adream.......

I think there should be a dozen or so ebikes at the out of town terminals where commuters leave their cars and get flexibuses into work in the city centres.(at least they do outside Belfast}
These should be for hire, and be 17m.p.h 350w throttle bikes as was suggested. In all but awful weather with a bit of publicity i think the bikes would become popular for commuters and the general public would soon want to own more ebikes.
Perhaps David and the representatives could suggest this. This thread is sounding pretty negative for the future of spevs and ebikes. Can someone get the ear of some visionary politico that these bikes are really good for the environment and create new regulations particilar to ebikes especially. Anything outside the former specs could be classed as moped and require insurance perhaps but no mot required,albeit some other no fee regular inspection.?
This should be presented as a car traffic reducing measure and a means of improving public health by lessening pollution and promoting exercise.
Just think how many Wispers that would require David?or Kalkhoffs or other models for whoever else is represented.

 

[Alex728]

unless (or even if) run on a similar way to car hire schemes with appropriate security these bikes would need to be locked down like Fort Knox and fitted with every kind of tracking device imaginable if they were expected to last more than 5 minutes.

the problem in the UK is there is a legislative prejudice against two wheelers including smaller mopeds. bicycles and ebikes are literally forced into the gutter - pokey little paths which by DfT's own admission are unsuitable for speeds over 18mph - whilst younger riders of small mopeds have the ludicrous situation that the CBT expires after 2 years when their foreign counterparts either don't even need any sort of test at all for smaller mopeds (however they are fuelled) or if they do its valid for life/unless they take a test for a more powerful motorcycle.

 

[tonio]

Agreed Alex, the security would have to be good,but any publicity is good publicity or so they say, and if they're worth stealing they are also worth buying, {or hiring}
The cycle path situation also needs improving for sure but i think we'd all agree that where there are good existing cycle paths the ebiking experience is hard to beat.
My argument is that representatives should take the offensive and remind the authorities of the governments commitments to reducing traffic especially,or even cite the greenhouse gas myth if that helps{personal opinion}, and health benefits of ebiking to make it more popular within safety issues.
If ebikes become less practical {200w, no throttle etc} the industry will become marginalised and although its great to own a decent ebike, id like to see others get the chance to get off the couch who may at present be unwilling or unable to do so.

 

[flecc]

the problem in the UK is there is a legislative prejudice against two wheelers

And that isn't the only problem, there's the fact that e-bike legislation is a harmonisation matter for the EU to decide and impose rules on complicates any attempt to get thing done. David and co are doing everything possible, but it's Europe they have to speak to and with so many national interests and biases involved and opposition from motorcycle interests, achieving anything at all is very difficult.

I can understand why Europe sees transport matters as needing harmonisation, in a Europe without borders it's the only sensible policy.
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