Does bicycle weight really matter?

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
Flecc, I know all about the Cytronex, and you are either very misguided or have a wicked sense of humour if you are comparing the two.

A Cytronex buyer is going to be installing the kit onto a very high end road bike, and wouldn't even begin to have the slightest of interest in a glorified hybrid.
I'm not speaking of the kit which followed years later, so long after many gave up on it ever appearing. I'm speaking of the complete bikes they sell by electrifying very light roadie bikes with the Tongxin nano motor and their software. And I do know who bought them.

There's no wicked humour on my part, I do see them as fitting the same kinds of riders, those who want the lightest possible bike with moderate and occasional assistance. Among those are the fixie fans who will be well suited by the Coboc if they want a bit of assist at odd times when the going gets tougher.

I can't understand why you can't see this, but it's clear you aren't by your comparing it with the Karoo and thinking it unlike the Cytronex bikes. I think that's wrong on both counts.
.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: tillson

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
Its the single speed gearing i dont get on the Coboc, what purpose does that serve ?..... Apart from being crap up hills and spinning out at speed !
Like the Hipsters who buy SS and fixies......I have the impression that people who buy single speed and fixies, do so because they're attracted to a bare bones bike thats as simple as possible. I would have thought that an Ekit added to it is in conflict with that.
Fixies are very popular with the professsional full time couriers, we have large numbers of them in London. Much of their work is in the central largely flat area, but they occasionally get into the hilly parts of North London where things can get tough for them. I see a potential market for some simple light occasional assist system there, since these guys often spend high on their bikes.

We have some similarly very fit cyclists riding the pedicabs, they have to be fit with the huge weights involved, and they've often taken to e-assist even though they've been illegal prior to April this year. So these very fit riders don't always have a rooted objection to e-assist, they just don't fit comfortably into the mainstream e-bike market.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldtom

EddiePJ

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 7, 2013
4,632
4,012
Crowborough, East Sussex
www.facebook.com
Going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

As far as I'm concerned the Coboc is never going to sell, and I really can't see how you would think that anyone taking part in any of the cycling disciplines and now careers that you mention, are going to be remotely interested in it, especially if the 3K price tag is correct. It is not going to happen.

A durable and sensibly priced high speed hybrid pedelec should sell all day long, but not an overpriced vulnerable bike, with limited range and limited assist.

So to clarify things, you saying that a regular single speed or fixie rider is going to switch to an electric assist Cobot before swapping out to gears, and that a roadie is going to switch to a Cobot before lowering gearing?

I can't even begin to understand why you would think that a cycle courier is going to buy a cobot, and the same for pedicab riders with I presume a Cyntronex system. Within the context of both courier and pedicab, you are also saying that the Cobot and Cytronex are built for commercial use! That alone shows a failure to understand the bikes and Cytronex intended use. In commercial use, I'd give both less than a few days use before failure.


Edit... Just looked at the link that SW has put up. Am I correct in thinking that this quoted text, means that BH are the manufacturer? It's totally different than anything in the BH line though. If that is the case, I really pity any potential buyer.
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
I certainly can't understand why you think that a cycle courier is going to buy a cobot, and the same for pedicab riders with I presume a Cyntronex system. Within the context of both courier and pedicab, you are also saying that the Cobot and Cytronex are built for commercial use! That alone shows a failure to understand the bikes and Cytronex intended use. In commercial use, I'd give it less than a few days before the electrical side of the bike fails, and not much longer for the rest.
Come now Eddie, that's ridiculous and I would never speak of a pedicab with a Cytronex system, nor did I recommend a Cytronex for commercial use. I just drew a comparison between the Coboc and possible courier use. My mention of the assisted pedicabs was to show that the very fit riders are not always averse to accept e-assist at times

It's not me not understanding the differences as your challenge about hill climbing the Coboc showed, that and your comparing it with the Karoo which is a regular e-bike. Such circa 19 kilo full assist system e-bikes as the Karoo have been around for years.

But the sort of very light, small batteried, lowish powered assist bikes like the Coboc have been rare, and the Cytronex bikes have been the closest that have lasted in the market. Hence the justified comparison.

This is a repeat of history, it's just this sort of aggressively critical posting that drove Mark of Cytronex and our Cytronex riding members away. You don't get the concept, that's fine, but why attack someone who does?
.
 
Last edited:

EddiePJ

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 7, 2013
4,632
4,012
Crowborough, East Sussex
www.facebook.com
So to educate me in respect of the system, post the forum members user names who bought Cytronix system and I can then read what was said to drive them away.
While you are at it, also post the links to the threads that drove Mark of Cytronex away.
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
So to educate me in respect of the system, post the forum members user names who bought Cytronix system and I can then read what was said to drive them away.
While you are at it, also post the links to the threads that drove Mark of Cytronex away.
I can't remember all the member names from that many years ago and doubt this forum's lousy search facility will find anything since the history seems largely limited to since the forum software changed.

However, the criticisms were similar to those here, things like low power, inadequate battery, short range, high prices, and forecasts they wouldn't sell. Clearly many didn't get the concept of light occasional power and I have to confess I didn't initially either. But Cytronex lasted and have proved there is a market for just this sort of low power occasional e-assistance.

I'm open minded enough to see that if that's possible as it was, the same might also apply in the single speed and fixie market. Whether it will or not remains to be seen, but i'm not going to put the boot in just out of pre-conceived prejudice.
.
.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
...
This is a repeat of history, it's just this sort of aggressively critical posting that drove Mark of Cytronex and our Cytronex riding members away.
...
.
Are we talking about Mark Searles of Modern Times Ltd, owner of the Electric Cycle Centre in Winchester?
He was advertising on the forum up to about 2 years ago IIRC.
I never understood why he puts a front motor on his beautiful Canondales.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
I can totally see the point in the Coboc bike. There must be a market for a light weight ebike which provides moderate and intermittent assistance. This is backed up by the fact that Cytronex have been in business, selling to this niche market, longer than most of the contributors to this thread have been forum members. As far as I can tell, they are continuing to trade.

I don't see how you can compare the Woosh Karoo to the Coboc. Look at the Woosh for starters. It has the appearance of a budget end bike, hefty wiring loom, cable operated brakes, a lump of a battery hanging off the frame and similar mass to a cathedral. The Coboc on the other hand looks like a piece of aerospace engineering and that appeals.

I think it's good to see the benefits of electrical assistance creeping into new cycling markets.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
Are we talking about Mark Searles of Modern Times Ltd, owner of the Electric Cycle Centre in Winchester?
He was advertising on the forum up to about 2 years ago IIRC.
I never understood why he puts a front motor on his beautiful Canondales.
I think that may be the same Mark who started up Cytronex. If so, he posted at the time of the introduction of the bikes but was the first Cytronex poster to drop out of posting after lots of sustained critical posting about the bikes from those who didn't get the concept. It seems you don't either.

I didn't immediately, but soon got the message and understand their place in the bicycle world. It clearly isn't in this forum, but that's the forum's loss.
.
 
Last edited:

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
I still don't get it but it does not matter, the market has its own logic, products sell or die on their own merits at the end of the day.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
But why no gears on the Coboc?
A combination of small battery and no gears must restrict the use of such a bike to flat land only....I don't think I have ever sold an e-bike to a costumer who hasn't said that 'he wants it to help up the hills'
Also the market for the Coboc is the city guy who uses a fixed gear but these guys wouldn't be seen dead on a pedelec.
I thought the Cytonex bikes have gears?
I can see a limited market for a very high end e-bike maybe like a KTM Revelator with the 2kg Bafang motor and a 2kg battery, The KTM has Di2 electronic shift,top Shimano gearing. Such a bike would be about £3500 but it would be a genuine top of the range sports bike.
If Kudos had produced such a bike it would have been very similar to the Woosh Karoo,all the Kudos engineers are impressed with that bike...it is a very limited market,Woosh have made one,not sure there is room for two.
KudosDave
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
I still don't get it but it does not matter, the market has its own logic, products sell or die on their own merits at the end of the day.
Agreed, and this will always be a small market.

The concept is that it suits the cyclist who likes road bikes and is quite keen but cannot sustain the necessary high levels of fitness of the best roadies. Those I knew of were mainly late 30s into 40s.

A Cytronex enables them to ride on the flat etc at normal roadie speeds but doesn't kill them on the hills in the way it would if unpowered. They just press the button then and get the light boost of the Tongxin nano motor added to the pedal power they are able to put in. As you may know, the motor has the simplest of software, one moderate power level switched on or off.

The roller drive Nano motor is the most free running hub motor there is, so is ideal for those who want to cycle without power much of the time with minimal effect on a good road bike. They can be fragile in 700c wheels, but with a controller that limits the power can be reliable.

These are not mainstream e-bikes, aren't intended to be and shouldn't be compared to them.

There's a similar application of the Tongxin in a Sun Bicycles model, but for a very different and mainstream purpose. There it's coupled to a tiny handlebar mounted battery to give continuous low power in easy territory.

And yet another mainstream one for easy territory was from Schwinn and later sold under the Claud Butler name. Again low powered Tongxin nano but coupled to the large but limited capacity Toshiba SCiB very fast charge battery.

In each case either low continuous power or medium intermittently applied power to suit the intended purpose.
.
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
But why no gears on the Coboc?
A combination of small battery and no gears must restrict the use of such a bike to flat land only...
Not so, for much of cycling's history bikes had no gears and when they were first introduced they were only narrow range three speed hub gears. I remember my boss in the trade snorting with derision at a five speed derailleur when they first appeared, saying "Who could ever need five gears?"

Cyclist were made of tougher stuff in those days, and many a fixie rider does cope with moderate hills as well.

I thought the Cytonex bikes have gears?
They usually do, for those riders who want them. Different market.

If Kudos had produced such a bike it would have been very similar to the Woosh Karoo,all the Kudos engineers are impressed with that bike...it is a very limited market,Woosh have made one,not sure there is room for two.
KudosDave
Shows you don't get it Dave. It wouldn't be a bike like the Coboc if it was more like a Karoo, which is a mainstream e-bike. As I posted earlier, we've had Karoos for many years, circa 19 kilos in stripped state with no mudguards, carriers etc. There's been many in various styles, Wisper sold one back in 2007 for example.

The Coboc is not a mainstream e-bike, it's for a very specialised market, the size of which remains to be seen. I say don't knock it, the widest range of choice is in all our interests.
.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
You don't get the concept, that's fine, but why attack someone who does?
There's a large number of forum members who just 'don't get the concept' flecc and it's their loss.

I still ride my Cytronex-powered Cannondale occasionally, (it's my other half's ride most of the time), and it never fails to astonish me how quickly it covers the ground when that little Tongxin is switched on. Switched off, it's not much different from any other hybrid on the road although it is a bit heavier than most after the addition of the electrics.

Cytronex bikes have often been criticised in these pages but for all the wrong reasons. The small battery capacity has often come in for criticism yet it's good for 20 miles when still in good condition and lots more if used judiciously. If all the pseudo road warrior critics were truthful, they would admit that most of the time spent on their EAPC doesn't come anywhere close to 20 miles. That fact allied to the ability to charge the battery from near empty to 90% in 30-45 minutes, (full in 90 mins or less) means that the Cytronex system would be perfectly adequate for a lot more people than the cynics might imagine.

Mine, fully equipped with all the same kit I have on my other bikes, weighs in at 17kgs and is pretty quick but more importantly to me, can be easily lifted on to a roof carrier or carried up a flight of stairs. Wheel removal for puncture repairs is simple and if there were a need to go further, a spare charged battery doesn't weigh much and can fit inside a rucksack or pannier bag easily.

Another frequent criticism is that they don't climb hills well but that is nonsense from the ignorant. They may not be the best hill-climbers around but they assist adequately up all the fairly steep hills around my neck of the woods. All too often, the criticisms of these lovely bikes comes from people who have never ridden one but read the specs then give forth with their expert view based on their familiarity of something completely different.

The guys down at Winchester are very good to deal with and can do bespoke bikes so it's not just the stock-list, take it or leave it. If you have something special, they can add their kit to it and can offer a choice of motor windings from hill-climb ability, through regular and up to very rapid, aka illegal!

The bikes are essentially very simple, easy to ride, as fast as most people will need and they are reasonably stealthy, looking not dissimilar to many lightweight bicycles, especially in proper road bike trim.

Is weight important? Hell, yes! For every bike maker and every kit supplier, weight-saving is their major target. It's the same story exactly as with regular pushbikes and that's why the hair-shirt brigade endeavour to shave every gram possible from their steed and hone their physique down to extremely low body fat levels.

My one and only dislike of the Cytronex system is that it isn't operated by a torque sensor but Mark Searles explained his thinking about that and about his choice of power delivery a long time ago. Nonetheless, with power off, it responds just like any regular pushbike and if power is suddenly required, it's there - all of it!

I could probably attach any of quite a number of off-the-shelf kits to a bike of my choice and produce something that betters the ready-made Cytronex bikes but that doesn't make the Cytronex a poor choice - if they were crap, Mark Searles would have been out of business a long time ago. He's a British entrepreneur and offers at least one British-sourced bike among the wide range on his stock list.

All too often, in these pages we read political opinion disparaging our European neighbours and promoting the notion that we would be better off leaving the EU. Curiously, many of these advocates seem perfectly happy to pay their hard-earned money to our German or Dutch friends and the Chinese, of course, rather than support a British business offering something that will do most if not all of what the other legal EAPCs can do. I'm left to wonder!

Tom
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
I still ride my Cytronex-powered Cannondale occasionally, (it's my other half's ride most of the time), and it never fails to astonish me how quickly it covers the ground when that little Tongxin is switched on. Switched off, it's not much different from any other hybrid on the road although it is a bit heavier than most after the addition of the electrics.
Great post Tom, good to hear from a Cytronex rider on their many advantages and road bike characteristics.

I suspect we won't convert many though, prejudice based on what another is used to is difficult to overcome, and the same prejudices exist to argue against single speed and fixies.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldtom

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Tony....your right I don't get it,but I have an open mind and prepared to be proved wrong,the guys on the Coboc stand also said to me that I don't understand the concept,looking at me as though I was a dinosaur.
I think the Karoo is extreme into the e-bike world,the Coboc off on another planet,is their a market at £3300.00?
The G tech e-bike is similar in concept,am I right? It started life £1795.00,down to £995.00,down to £700.00... I bet if you rang them and said £500 for a few,they would take it.....It doesn't send out good signals.
Personally I think the Karoo has got it right,the concept joined with a big battery and gears,style plus some practicality.
Interesting subject though.
KudosDave
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
There's a large number of forum members who just 'don't get the concept' flecc and it's their loss.

I still ride my Cytronex-powered Cannondale occasionally, (it's my other half's ride most of the time), and it never fails to astonish me how quickly it covers the ground when that little Tongxin is switched on. Switched off, it's not much different from any other hybrid on the road although it is a bit heavier than most after the addition of the electrics.

Cytronex bikes have often been criticised in these pages but for all the wrong reasons. The small battery capacity has often come in for criticism yet it's good for 20 miles when still in good condition and lots more if used judiciously. If all the pseudo road warrior critics were truthful, they would admit that most of the time spent on their EAPC doesn't come anywhere close to 20 miles. That fact allied to the ability to charge the battery from near empty to 90% in 30-45 minutes, (full in 90 mins or less) means that the Cytronex system would be perfectly adequate for a lot more people than the cynics might imagine.

Mine, fully equipped with all the same kit I have on my other bikes, weighs in at 17kgs and is pretty quick but more importantly to me, can be easily lifted on to a roof carrier or carried up a flight of stairs. Wheel removal for puncture repairs is simple and if there were a need to go further, a spare charged battery doesn't weigh much and can fit inside a rucksack or pannier bag easily.

Another frequent criticism is that they don't climb hills well but that is nonsense from the ignorant. They may not be the best hill-climbers around but they assist adequately up all the fairly steep hills around my neck of the woods. All too often, the criticisms of these lovely bikes comes from people who have never ridden one but read the specs then give forth with their expert view based on their familiarity of something completely different.

The guys down at Winchester are very good to deal with and can do bespoke bikes so it's not just the stock-list, take it or leave it. If you have something special, they can add their kit to it and can offer a choice of motor windings from hill-climb ability, through regular and up to very rapid, aka illegal!

The bikes are essentially very simple, easy to ride, as fast as most people will need and they are reasonably stealthy, looking not dissimilar to many lightweight bicycles, especially in proper road bike trim.

Is weight important? Hell, yes! For every bike maker and every kit supplier, weight-saving is their major target. It's the same story exactly as with regular pushbikes and that's why the hair-shirt brigade endeavour to shave every gram possible from their steed and hone their physique down to extremely low body fat levels.

My one and only dislike of the Cytronex system is that it isn't operated by a torque sensor but Mark Searles explained his thinking about that and about his choice of power delivery a long time ago. Nonetheless, with power off, it responds just like any regular pushbike and if power is suddenly required, it's there - all of it!

I could probably attach any of quite a number of off-the-shelf kits to a bike of my choice and produce something that betters the ready-made Cytronex bikes but that doesn't make the Cytronex a poor choice - if they were crap, Mark Searles would have been out of business a long time ago. He's a British entrepreneur and offers at least one British-sourced bike among the wide range on his stock list.

All too often, in these pages we read political opinion disparaging our European neighbours and promoting the notion that we would be better off leaving the EU. Curiously, many of these advocates seem perfectly happy to pay their hard-earned money to our German or Dutch friends and the Chinese, of course, rather than support a British business offering something that will do most if not all of what the other legal EAPCs can do. I'm left to wonder!

Tom
Old Tom....isn't the Tongxin motor made in Hangzhou?
KudosDave
 

Yamdude

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 20, 2013
842
639
Somerset
I totally get the Cytronex bikes and i took a good look at them a while back when i was looking for a lightweight road ebike...... but i ended up discounting them because i thought they were overpriced for what they were.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Izzyekerslike