Fastest climber?

[Polar753]

Hi all,

Be gentle first post,

Title says it all really, my geared up pro connect goes up hill with reasonable effort at about 8mph, a 1 in 10 at about 7mph. I went for the bike for its climbing ability but I'm beginning to wonder if other bikes like Cytronex may be faster.

I went electric to help avoid the slow hill climb on narrow twisty and busy roads, I'm not that bothered about hi speed assist, so I'm thinking changing the gearing was not the best idea. Forgive me I'm a geek and I had to chip it.

Don't take this as a negative review, the bike is really good, its got me back cycling again where other bikes have failed, even with the cold and snow etc.

Been lurking for a while, thanks for all the info.

 

[matt-derby]

hills

8-9mph is about fair with reasonable effort. Smaller length hills can be done at 11mph but you couldn't sustain that for too long.

The Tongxin motor isn't the most powerful but is very small, lightweight and I really do struggle to hear it at all. I'm sure there are some faster hill climbing motors available.

With their range of lightweight bikes the real benefit of the Cytronex range is you don't have to use the power to get around. I sometimes forget to re-press the button after breaking.

I'm currently riding the Cytronex CB Urban 500.

Presteigne is a must to check out them all, great day out too!

 

[Polar753]

Hi Matt

Thanks for the info, Presteigne seems a fun way to learn about what's new.

Interesting to hear you climb at about the same pace, the Cytronex did tempt me but I felt the Kalkhoff was a better fit at the moment, though that was before they expanded the range.

I am saving as this is turning into a new hobby for me, and I'll probably end up with something wife permitting, next year. Hopefully the Cytronex kit will appear this year as I already have a perfect bike for it, the car will have to go to help funds a bit, but its not getting much use now anyway.

Cheers

 

[themutiny]

Hi

Hub motors will get you up a hill quicker than the Panasonic system. No doubt about it, however, there is a caveat, and it's a big one.

As has been posted here many times, a geared motor will get the rider up (almost) any hill. A hub motor on the other hand needs the sweet spot. If, as a cyclist, you can keep the hub motor at the sweet spot - which in practise means on steep hills you have to have an explosion of energy commensurate with the steepness of the hill, then they are faster. If on the other hand, you cannot keep this up, you will eventually end up pushing a hub-motored e-bike up the hill (as well as straining the battery somewhat). The Panasonic system seems better suited to cyclists that have very steep hills to negotiate. In other words:

If you can blast the hills, go for a hub, if not - don't!

Cheers,

Nick

 

[daniel.weck]

a geared motor will get the rider up (almost) any hill. A hub motor on the other hand needs the sweet spot.

This statement is confusing, because a hub motor (i.e. located at the center of either the front or rear wheel) can either be geared or direct-drive. I think what you actually meant is that a motor that drives *through the bicycle gears* (i.e. located near the bottom bracket, like the Yahama, Panasonic or Sunstar motor units) usually gives the rider the ability to climb any hill, at the cost of a lower overall ascent speed. A direct-drive hub motor, unless very powerful (i.e. only legal for private off-road use) performs poorly uphill but provides fast assistance on the flat. A geared hub motor at the legal 250W continuous (approx. 400W peak, sometimes more) is normally very good at assisting the rider uphill, and once momentum is established such motor usually achieves a higher average climbing speed. The trade-off is that starting an ascent from a standstill requires more human input and feels much less "natural" than a drive-through-gears motor (which, by the way, also contain an internal reduction gear mechanism).

Cheers, Dan

 

[john]

The other thing about the Panasonic system, if I understand it correctly, is that it matches your power input (up to 1.3 times?) so you may never get even 200W from it. On the other hand you could get a peak of around 400W from a legal hub motor when climbing.

 

[Pedalo]

Hi all,

Be gentle first post,

Title says it all really, my geared up pro connect goes up hill with reasonable effort at about 8mph, a 1 in 10 at about 7mph. I went for the bike for its climbing ability but I'm beginning to wonder if other bikes like Cytronex may be faster.

I went electric to help avoid the slow hill climb on narrow twisty and busy roads, I'm not that bothered about hi speed assist, so I'm thinking changing the gearing was not the best idea. Forgive me I'm a geek and I had to chip it.

Don't take this as a negative review, the bike is really good, its got me back cycling again where other bikes have failed, even with the cold and snow etc.

Been lurking for a while, thanks for all the info.

I regularly do a 1 in 9 hill at about 9-10mph and it doesn't seem like too much effort. The hill does level off to something like 1 in 12 after about 80m though and then it's a long slog for a few hundred metres during which I comfortably maintain the same speed.

I think if my hill were any steeper than 1 in 9 (or the 1 in 9 portion went on for much longer), I'd be seriously considering the panasonic system.

 

[Polar753]

Thanks for the info, slowly beginning to get the picture.

Would I be right in saying there seem to be four main systems, with various strengths / weaknesses:

Direct-drive Hub Motor(Cytronex): Simple, quiet, fast on the flat and gentle hills, has a sweet spot, but steeper hills requiring hi effort.

Geared Hub Motor(Heinzmann): Has sweet spot but powerful ones give fastest climbing ability, but not uk road legal.

Through the bicycle gears(Panasonic): Good hill climber, best all rounder, reduced climbing speed.

Bottom Bracket motor(Optibike): Fast climber and on the flat, but expensive and not UK road legal.

So would I be correct in saying that the fastest climbing uk road legal bike is probably the new Pro connect S 300w with I think 1:2 assist? Looks a nice bike, but comes with a nice price too.

I understand the uk 15mph rule, but why 250w ?? A 500w that stopped at 15mph would be much safer, I feel vulnerable doing 7mph being passed by cars / vans etc doing 40+.

 

[john]

Thanks for the info, slowly beginning to get the picture.

Would I be right in saying there seem to be four main systems, with various strengths / weaknesses:

Direct-drive Hub Motor(Cytronex): Simple, quiet, fast on the flat and gentle hills, has a sweet spot, but steeper hills requiring hi effort.

This uses a Tongxin motor which is geared.

Geared Hub Motor(Heinzmann): Has sweet spot but powerful ones give fastest climbing ability, but not uk road legal.

The Bafang motors are quite powerful and considered legal by suppliers such as Wisper and Alien.

Through the bicycle gears(Panasonic): Good hill climber, best all rounder, reduced climbing speed.

Bottom Bracket motor(Optibike): Fast climber and on the flat, but expensive and not UK road legal.

So would I be correct in saying that the fastest climbing uk road legal bike is probably the new Pro connect S 300w with I think 1:2 assist? Looks a nice bike, but comes with a nice price too.

For very steep hills, that is probably true.

I understand the uk 15mph rule, but why 250w ?? A 500w that stopped at 15mph would be much safer, I feel vulnerable doing 7mph being passed by cars / vans etc doing 40+.

 

[lemmy]

The Panasonic system certainly works well on hills.

Yesterday I rode from Richmond centre up Richmond Hill, for example, all in 8th gear on my Kalkhoff Tasman, initially at 14mph where power assist is below max, dropping back until with perfectly manageable effort, I was still doing just under 9mph at the top at around full boost on the medium power setting.

Where the system works well is you can choose whether to climb slowly in, at an extreme, 1st gear, with no perceivable effort at all or add effort and select higher gears for more speed. I've found no need for the 1.3 times power level even climbing the downs around Epsom and have only used it when the bike was new to try it out.

Flecc would probably know, but I'd have thought that the bike would climb any hill I'm likely to encounter in the UK. I'm a fairly strong cyclist anyway, which must help.

 

[Polar753]

Thanks, I missed the Tongxin was actually geared. Next time I'm down south I'll try to get a test on Cytronex and a Wisper too.

The steepest hill I do is 1 in 10 and thats a short one so mabe the Tongxin would suit when I'm a bit fitter. A 1 in 9 hill at about 9-10mph sounds good to me.

Anyone got a Cytronex for sale?

Thanks for the info. I think I will put the old gearing back on to see if it makes much difference on the steep hills.

 

[flecc]

As Lemmy says the Panasonic system will climb anything you'll ever meet on UK roads, even 1 in 3 with a reasonably capable rider, so it's one for steep to very steep hills. John is right though that the torque sensor control can only allow power commensurate with the rider input, 1 to 1 in standard mode, hence the slower climbing.

Otherwise it's as Nick (themutiny) says, hub motors, meaning the great majority which are internally geared, are the best bet for faster climbing if the rider has the ability to contribute enough to keep them at their optimum climb speed on any given hill, that's generally 7 to 9 mph on legal e-bikes. Forget about 1 in 3 hills though, unless you are a super athlete, and anything over 1 in 7 tends to demand more effort than the Panasonic drive through gear type system.
.

 

[eTim]

This is my personal experience: Climbing my local 14-20% hills on the Synapse in the lowest gear on the triple ring, I can maintain 8mph with a reasonable amount of effort and be breathing heavily at the end of 500m. On the SuperSix more effort is required due to the higher gearing on the twin ring. Hills below about 10% are very easy and little leg input is actually required to maintain 10-12mph.

There is a slight difference in the motors on my bikes as the Synapse is a 190, the S6 is a 175, but I don't think there is that much difference on these type of hills for the Cytronex system.

I haven't gone much steeper than this yet, but depending on the length of hill, I might have to stand on the pedals or end up walking, so alot depends on the gearing and/or your own strength with the Cytronex system.

Worth a test ride in Winchester, there is a steep hill almost right behind the shop. I should point out that I bought the Cytronex to help me with gaining fitness and for long commutes 45-50 mile round trip.

 

[Polar753]

Many thanks for all the replies,

Just been out for a ride and the 10% hill really is quite easy, 2nd gear 7mph still sitting without being breathless. I can really believe it is quite unstoppable. Extra effort doesn't seem to increase speed that much, it seems the bike has a speed its happy at, or am I not fit enough yet to grab the next gear?

The Synapse looks great, thanks for the pics, SuperSix is what the other half would call "bike porn" v nice. A trip to Winchester will be on the cards soon."Commutes 45-50 mile round trip" I would have to lie down for the rest of the day after that! How many batteries do you have to carry?

I bought the bike for fitness mostly, I found rush hour commuting required some brave pills. Is it wrong to think about fitting a Tongxin to the front wheel to get the best of both worlds? I know it would be very illegal, but I think it would be fun.

 

[flecc]

Extra effort doesn't seem to increase speed that much, it seems the bike has a speed its happy at, or am I not fit enough yet to grab the next gear?

If you read this article in my website on how the Panasonic system works, you'll see why this is. Increasing speed by a couple of mph can actually double the effort you need to put in:

Panasonic power delivery

The following link is to my Panasonic website index page for other information:

Power Units Index

Is it wrong to think about fitting a Tongxin to the front wheel to get the best of both worlds? I know it would be very illegal, but I think it would be fun.

It's been done a number of times, the photo below shows a Panasonic unit equipped Giant Lafree with a 19 mph Heinzmann front hub motor. This one is extremely illegal since it also has a tiny petrol generator on the carrier so that both power units can run at the same time.

 

[Polar753]

Hi flecc,

Thanks for all that, looks like I have some reading to catch up on. The picture of the Giant Lafree is hilarious, a good candidate for the Darwin Awards. Extra speed and weight with poor brakes has to be one of the most dangerous things I've seen on two wheels.

Not sure what the local police would make of that one, you'd probably get sent to jail for using it on the road these days.

 

[emissions-free]

Just get a reasonably powerful geared Hub motor with a 25A controller and you will not have any problems with hills. If you stick to 15mph and maybe a bit more when nobody is looking who's to know Just unleash the beast when you hit the hills The more powerful hub motors do not use any more power to do the same work as a smaller lower powered motor in my experience.

The Bafang Climber is a very nice motor and they even make a 250W version if you really must stick to the rules but better to go with a 350W or 500W IMO. When I tried 1 of the 250 watters out it seemed to have very strong watts... The Puma motor is also a very nice geared hub motor. Both are bigger than your average hub motor and weigh about 4kg a piece but that weight and size dissapears when you twist that grip.

 

[emissions-free]

Hi flecc,

Thanks for all that, looks like I have some reading to catch up on. The picture of the Giant Lafree is hilarious, a good candidate for the Darwin Awards. Extra speed and weight with poor brakes has to be one of the most dangerous things I've seen on two wheels.

Not sure what the local police would make of that one, you'd probably get sent to jail for using it on the road these days.

It doesn't look so bad to me. How dangerous can it get at somewhere between 15 and 20mph on a push bike. Try hanging off the side of a sports bike at 150mph now that's dangerous

 

[Polar753]

It doesn't look so bad to me. How dangerous can it get at somewhere between 15 and 20mph on a push bike. Try hanging off the side of a sports bike at 150mph now that's dangerous

Ok fair point, I was going to say except for a ZZR 1100, But at least you have a nice set of disk brakes to slow you down. Imagine trying to stop at the bottom of a steep hill with a hairpin on that Giant Lafree! I can just pcture that petrol gen bouncing off your head as you go over the edge.

 

[eTim]

The Synapse looks great, thanks for the pics, SuperSix is what the other half would call "bike porn" v nice. A trip to Winchester will be on the cards soon."Commutes 45-50 mile round trip" I would have to lie down for the rest of the day after that! How many batteries do you have to carry?

I've only done the round trip (45mile) commute once so far because I've not had the bike long, Xmas, snow, manflu and laziness have all conspired against me!

But on that trip I carried 2 batteries in the bike bottle holders and used approx 1 and 3/4 batteries judging by the recharge times. I was pedalling at a constant rate on that run and I felt exercised at the end of it, if I had taken it a bit more leisurely I would probably have used a full battery each way, it took me approx 1 hour 15mins to do the 22.5 mile one-way trip and there were plenty of ups and downs enroute.