zoros

Pedelecer
May 15, 2019
40
20
Still ...by the time you MoT it road insure and tax it, buy it............and pedal and rest if needs be (as above), I really can't see the point in electric bikes.
Mopeds are exactly the same even down to pedalling them BUT they have a range of hundreds of miles and are much faster if needed. Most importantly they are much cheaper 2nd hand too.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
16,400
14,108
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Still ...by the time you MoT it road insure and tax it, buy it............and pedal and rest if needs be (as above), I really can't see the point in electric bikes.
Mopeds are exactly the same even down to pedalling them BUT they have a range of hundreds of miles and are much faster if needed. Most importantly they are much cheaper 2nd hand too.
why do you have to MoT it and insure it? You can fill in an SVA form, pay £55 fees, no need for MoT, insurance.
The only requirement is to have a legal bike before adding a throttle.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,299
27,014
Still ...by the time you MoT it road insure and tax it, buy it............and pedal and rest if needs be (as above), I really can't see the point in electric bikes.
Pedelecs don't have to be MOT'd, there's no VED (road tax) and no insurance necessary. That's a lot of difference from mopeds.

For most the point of electric bikes is being able to cycle or continue cycling, getting as much exercise as they need while getting help with hills and strong headwinds. Some like me have also used them to help with hauling large trailer loads:

Information link

Post crossed with Woosh's post.
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zoros

Pedelecer
May 15, 2019
40
20
I'm confused now:
Posts 13 and 17 talk about MoT's?? Is this not the case, then>?
Post 62 - I was under the impression that these (throttle EBikes, for want of a better description), are popular because you don't need to cycle??? So what are you saying?
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
1,933
1,321
67
West Wales
My conversion has a throttle, I rarely use it, but the option is there. Where I do use it is for hill starts, to cover that second or two before the pas kicks in. The other circumstance is for a fast get away from a busy junction, not often here 'cos I live in the country. The third is if I've stopped in the wrong gear - that's the advantage of having a hub motor.
You're making the assumption that folk only want a throttle so they don't have to peddle, this is not the case. There are those, with lung capacity issues or stamina problems etc. , who can use the throttle and not peddle.

As to legality - any bike manufactured before Jan 1st 2016 can have a full acting throttle in the UK.
There is no prohibition on throttles on kits (in the UK), this is because the legielation omits to mention them. So, any self converted bike can have a throttle. Any manufactured bike cannot be supplied with a throttle fitted but the rider can fit one themselves as this technically turns it into a self made bike.
Messy ain't it? This is what happens when politicians get involved in something they have no practical experience of.

As far as I can see the OP had to go through the type approval procedure because they are a manufacturer. I don't know what that means that the item for sale is actually classed as.
Who knows? Who gives a ****? I just want to ride my bike, in peace, with a bit of help for my ageing carcass.
:D
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,299
27,014
I'm confused now:
Posts 13 and 17 talk about MoT's?? Is this not the case, then>?
The MoT mentioned in those posts refer to the Ministry of Transport inspection centre to get the type approval, not an MOT test. Annual MOT tests only apply to motor vehicles, pedelecs are classified as bicycles.

Post 62 - I was under the impression that these (throttle EBikes, for want of a better description), are popular because you don't need to cycle??? So what are you saying?
That's just one of many reasons, the others are as we've given.
.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,299
27,014
Let's remind ourselves that all the legal kits can have throttle.
There is no prohibition on throttles on kits (in the UK), this is because the legielation omits to mention them. So, any self converted bike can have a throttle. Any manufactured bike cannot be supplied with a throttle fitted but the rider can fit one themselves as this technically turns it into a self made bike.
I've never agreed with these interpretations, this is what the DfT have published on the subject in their Information Sheet on EAPCs:

"However, under European law new "Twist and Go" vehicles will, from January 2016, have to meet a range of technical requirements before they can be used on roads. This will normally be established by "type approval" at the manufacturing stage but importers and individuals will be able to seek an individual approval for vehicles that have not been type approved."

The last sentence makes the position clear that there is no exemption for new kits or new conversions created after 31st December 2015. They need the individual SVA as well to be used on the roads.
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shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,823
685
Hi David, Good news and well done, perhaps they could be now be included by the government as part of the mobility allowance scheme as they are now classified as motor vehicles and the extra purchasing charge be able to be recovered by disadvantaged users under the scheme.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,299
27,014
Hi David, Good news and well done, perhaps they could be now be included by the government as part of the mobility allowance scheme as they are now classified as motor vehicles and the extra purchasing charge be able to be recovered by disadvantaged users under the scheme.
Good idea.
.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
5,916
1,894
66
Sevenoaks Kent
I agree it would be a good idea, it would be even better if the government actually got behind ebikes in general and offered subsidies to all ebike purchases!
 

Laser Man

Pedelecer
Jul 1, 2018
178
107
Michelmersh SO51
It's all down to the money.
£55 buys you the right to a throttle -
so does £110 buy the right to a throttle and 500W and £165 to a throttle, 500W and 20+mph?
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,299
27,014
It's all down to the money.
£55 buys you the right to a throttle -
so does £110 buy the right to a throttle and 500W and £165 to a throttle, 500W and 20+mph?
Unfortunately no.

The £55 SVA throttle is only for Great Britain, but the other items are for the S class pedelecs which we can't have in Great Britain. They only exist in three EU countries and Switzerland and they can't have throttles.
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Velonoir

Finding my (electric) wheels
Nov 9, 2019
12
3
Interesting thread, so is it the general consensus that if a pre 2016 bike is converted a throttle can legally be fitted? Is there any legal documentation anywhere which confirms this please in case of any argument?
As mentioned earlier, don't really need on, but would be nice just in case.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
5,916
1,894
66
Sevenoaks Kent
Interesting thread, so is it the general consensus that if a pre 2016 bike is converted a throttle can legally be fitted? Is there any legal documentation anywhere which confirms this please in case of any argument?
As mentioned earlier, don't really need on, but would be nice just in case.
I am sure others would be more informed on this but I don't believe there is a restriction on customer fitted conversion kits.

All the best, David
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,299
27,014
Interesting thread, so is it the general consensus that if a pre 2016 bike is converted a throttle can legally be fitted? Is there any legal documentation anywhere which confirms this please in case of any argument?
As mentioned earlier, don't really need on, but would be nice just in case.
I am sure others would be more informed on this but I don't believe there is a restriction on customer fitted conversion kits.

All the best, David
They are subject according to what the DfT have published:

See this post above

The words in bold appear to include all if the DfT are correct. It comes down to whether the conversion after December 2015 constitutes it being a newly created vehicle in law. I think it does since it only became an e-bike after that date, but it's one for the lawyers to argue over.
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Velonoir

Finding my (electric) wheels
Nov 9, 2019
12
3
Thanks for that, all makes sense, it would be nice to get a definitive answer, sadly that may well only happen in a court case, I certainly don't want to be the test case!
I guess it all comes down to luck, Ive done many thousands of miles over about 60 years since I had my first bike and never been stopped, but get involved in an accident and it may well be a different story. Prap's best to play it safe.
 

Velonoir

Finding my (electric) wheels
Nov 9, 2019
12
3
I contacted the DoT specifically regarding the legality of "twist and Go" on converted bikes that were made before 2016, they replied within a few days, and although they do say that only a court of law can give a definitive interpretation , i't their opinion that it's quite legal and not subject as a "one off" to type approval . they even add that it's ok, as an individual, to convert a newer used bike which would also be legal.

If it's expressed by the DoT that in their opinion something is legal to do something, I wonder who might question that ?

Anyway, here's their reply:



Dear Mr Jones

Thank you for your email of 14 November regarding your question on E Bikes manufactured before 2016 that are fitted with full speed throttles. Your correspondence has been forwarded to me to respond.

Vehicles which are powered by electric motors are considered as motor vehicles under Great Britain legislation. The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations 1983 (EAPC Regulations) introduced a new definition that allows certain types of electrically assisted cycles to fall outside the general legal scope of a motor vehicle and therefore not be subject to the same range of regulatory requirements. The EAPC Regulations were amended in 2015; both regulations can be found at the following links:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1983/1168/contents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/pdfs/uksi_20150024_en.pdf

These regulations, as amended, define an Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle (EAPC) as a vehicle having pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled, fitted with an electric motor that has a maximum power which does not exceed 250 watts and which cannot propel the vehicle at more than 15.5 mph. Machines that can travel under their own power (eg with a throttle) are included in the EAPC definition provided that they are capable of being propelled by the use of their pedals and conform to the other requirements listed in those regulations.

From 2016, a new EAPC, with for example a "Twist and Go" type throttle, that provides power when the rider is not pedalling, was required to be type-approved by the manufacturer before being placed on the market as an EAPC. This EU regulation had no effect on any bike that was already built and in use on the road, it only affects the manufacturing of brand new bikes. In our understanding it is legal to take a pre-2016, "used" bike and modify it, by adding a throttle to provide power without simultaneous pedalling above 6 km/h, as long as it remains in compliance with the key requirements of an EAPC: pedals by which the cycle can be propelled, maximum power 250W, and power cuts off automatically at 25 km/h (15.5 mph). In fact, it is permissible for private individuals to modify a newer bike that has already been in use for a period as well, on condition that this is a one-off, as by definition an individual and unique vehicle
produced by a non-professional is not subject to type approval.


Please note that this email contains the views of the Department for Transport and that insofar as this letter provides an interpretation of the law, it is only a court of law that is able to give a legally definitive interpretation.

Yours sincerely
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,299
27,014
In our understanding it is legal to take a pre-2016, "used" bike and modify it, by adding a throttle to provide power without simultaneous pedalling above 6 km/h
I think you've read too much into their reply.

Take the part I've quoted above. It only mentions adding a throttle, no mention of a motor. In other words you can add a throttle to a pre-existing pedelec and it will be legal. That I agree with.

But adding a motor kit to a pre-existing bicycle is a different matter, changing a bicycle into an EAPC (pedelec), and the law I pasted in earlier in the thread on this link indicates that would not be legal.
.
 
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Velonoir

Finding my (electric) wheels
Nov 9, 2019
12
3
Perhaps I should have included in my post, the question that I posed to them, which gives a better context
Their answer was to the question below, which relates to adding a motor using a legal conversion kit, what do you think?

Hi there,
There is much discussion on the various E Bike forums regarding the fitment of Twist and go throttles,

It seems fairly clear that from 2016 these are not allowed on new road legal bikes ( unless they’ve been individually tested and approved }

E Bikes manufactured before 2016 that are fitted with full speed throttles appear to remain legal ?

There seems to be a grey area regarding legal conversion kits, which come with full speed throttles, ( of which there doesn’t seem to be a mention )

It’s generally bandied about, that if a road legal conversion is done by a private individual on a bicycle that was made and used before 2016, that a throttle may be fitted as long as the bike is pedal assisted as well, with a cut off at 25Kph.

It would be great if possible to have a definitive answer to this question, any information that you could provide would be most appreciated .
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,299
27,014
Perhaps I should have included in my post, the question that I posed to them, which gives a better context
Their answer was to the question below, which relates to adding a motor using a legal conversion kit, what do you think?

Hi there,
There is much discussion on the various E Bike forums regarding the fitment of Twist and go throttles,

It seems fairly clear that from 2016 these are not allowed on new road legal bikes ( unless they’ve been individually tested and approved }

E Bikes manufactured before 2016 that are fitted with full speed throttles appear to remain legal ?

There seems to be a grey area regarding legal conversion kits, which come with full speed throttles, ( of which there doesn’t seem to be a mention )

It’s generally bandied about, that if a road legal conversion is done by a private individual on a bicycle that was made and used before 2016, that a throttle may be fitted as long as the bike is pedal assisted as well, with a cut off at 25Kph.


It would be great if possible to have a definitive answer to this question, any information that you could provide would be most appreciated .
But that bandied about opinion is what I disagree with. If that was legal, why would the example of the law I posted earlier include individuals getting single vehicle approval? The DfT have been making a mess of the law in this area ever since 10th November 2003, and they know it. In my dealings with them over many years now they always use the cop out of saying they can't be definitive and a court will have to test whatever it is being queried.

This whole throttle business cropped up because they first corrected their 2003 error on 6th April 2015 by full compliance with EU law, but then tried to circumvent that law to allow throttles. They could have and should have sought throttle compliance permission between 9th May 2003 and 10th November 2003 with the EUs blessing, when that opportunity was allowed, but they failed to.

The resulting mess meant that for a 12 year period from 2003 to 2015 around 90% of UK pedelecs were illegally powered and all pedelecs in Northern Ireland still are to this day and have to be registered as motor cycles.

You'll gather that I know more than a little bit about the law in this area.
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