Hello!

Nealh

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Aug 7, 2014
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Another (slight) minus for hub motors and (slight) plus for mid drives is the difficulty/ease of fixing rear wheel punctures.
Not really you don't have to remove the rear wheel if you set up for tube less otherwise repair the tube by just removing the tyre on one side or fit a Gaadi tube.
 

ColinJTod

Pedelecer
Jul 21, 2020
32
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Todmorden
Not really you don't have to remove the rear wheel if you set up for tube less otherwise repair the tube by just removing the tyre on one side or fit a Gaadi tube.
I did say a slight minus!

Hmm, Gaadi tubes are new to me - thanks - an interesting idea.

I have never tried tubeless, though I know a few people who swear by them...


Impressive! (Puncture resistance that is. Very UN-impressive bottle smashing technique... Why drop/hit it against the sheet of wood when you have a perfectly good hard car park surface underneath? And risk cutting your hand to pieces or blinding yourself!)
 

georgehenry

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Nov 7, 2015
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I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong. but a tubeless set up is more for running low pressures off road.

For riding on the road just fit a appropriate pair of schwalbe marathon plus tyres and you will be very unlucky to get a puncture.
 

Nealh

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Aug 7, 2014
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TL can be used on or off road, just means lower psi can be ran without causing tube pinch's and self sealing usually.
 

sjpt

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 8, 2018
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I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong. but a tubeless set up is more for running low pressures off road.

For riding on the road just fit a appropriate pair of schwalbe marathon plus tyres and you will be very unlucky to get a puncture.
Marathon Plus are great and I am a huge fan. However they are not light and not that easy rolling, using tubeless you can probably (*) get the same puncture resistance with a much lighter tyre and better rolling, or lower pressure (greater comfort) and same rolling resistance.

(*) I must admit I've never tried.
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
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Hi Colin,
Given what you've said about your friends spin rate I would avoid crank drive, as previously said they can dictate cadence level. Also on the noise issue, a rear hub is shielded by the riders body, they therefore appear much quieter, although a following rider will hear it. Different motors generate more or less noise - when you decide post a link and someone will know what it's like.

Where battery size and range anxiety are concerned - generally speaking it is assumed that a rider will use 10-20 watt/hours per mile. So a 10Ah 36v battery is nominally 360Wh giving between 18 and 36 miles - depends on rider fitness, work rate, terrain, wind etc. I'd say rule of thumb is buy the biggest you can afford.

Beware of cheap kits on e-bay and amazon, they are often power hungry and inefficient direct drive motors - not good for hills. Check here before you buy.
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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Basildon
Where battery size and range anxiety are concerned - generally speaking it is assumed that a rider will use 10-20 watt/hours per mile. So a 10Ah 36v battery is nominally 360Wh giving between 18 and 36 miles - depends on rider fitness, work rate, terrain, wind etc. I'd say rule of thumb is buy the biggest you can afford.
That's nowhere near. It would be right for an unfit 100kg rider. When I first started I was one of those and my rides are very hilly. I could always manage 30 miles fom my 8.8 Ah battery. A 64kg rider is more likely to be around 7Wh per mile, or 51 miles from a 10Ah battery

There's nothing that spoils cycling more than mass, and the battery plays a significant part in the mass. By using a lighter battery, you can get a bike that's much nicer to ride. Everything is a compromise, but you have to understand that a 12 Ah battery is the same for a 60kg rider as a 20Ah one is for a 100kg rider in terms of range.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
14,462
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
A 64kg rider is more likely to be around 7Wh per mile, or 51 miles from a 10Ah battery
you'll need to ride a German bike to go that low on battery usage because they have ways to make you pedal harder.
The lady has a slow cadence, that says to me she is not a strong pedaller.
10WH / mile is more realistic.
 
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Nealh

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Tbh the lady will not know the range available to her until she rides any bike she gets, we can all estimate her range but can be 10 miles or so out either way.
Not forgetting it is said her cadence is low as is her riding speed, at low speed the assist will always be active and the current draw will be on the higher side then someone riding at the cut off or above it.
 

vfr400

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Jun 12, 2011
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you'll need to ride a German bike to go that low on battery usage because they have ways to make you pedal harder.
The lady has a slow cadence, that says to me she is not a strong pedaller.
10WH / mile is more realistic.
That's rubbish. Did you not see the lady from Battribike(?) In the world Championships at Bristol. She was tall and thin with a very low cadence, but she got her Battribike up that hill quicker than the athlete on the Haibike.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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Some people are natural athletes most are not.
you know as well as I do that the power of her input is directly proportional to her cadence and torque.
I rode the Woosh Faro fitted with the torque sensor for the best part of a year (I still have two of them in stock in case anyone is interested) - I used about 6WH-7WH per mile. The main reason for low battery consumption is you are forced to pedal hard on hills. No other choice.
Anything with cadence sensor, you'll be lulled into 'lazy mode' especially on hills when you can leave the bike to do all the work.
 
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vfr400

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Jun 12, 2011
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Some people are natural athletes most are not.
you know as well as I do that the power of her input is directly proportional to her cadence and torque.
Nice theory. How do you account for the fact that she beat the guy on the Haibike, when she was on a relatively low-powered Batribike then? She was not that heavy, and you could see that she was making tremendous torque with her low cadence. I can imagine that she was of similar build to OP's girlfriend, though probably older. I was very impressed by her efforts, which is why I remember it so well. Weren't you there?
 

ColinJTod

Pedelecer
Jul 21, 2020
32
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Todmorden
My pal is currently** in a bit of a Catch-22 situation with cycling. Because we live in hilly area and she finds those hills hard, she doesn't do much cycling. Because she doesn't do much cycling, she never gets cycling fit and finds the hills hard!

We rode the (Morecambe) Bay Way together a couple of years ago. Most of that is flat or undulating but we added a lumpy detour up the side of Coniston Water, up and over to Hawkshead, then back to the Bay Way via Windermere. She coped much better than I expected on the 4 or 5 significant hills that we did encounter so I think she can do more when she feels motivated to do it!

I'm hoping that with motor assistance she will start riding regularly, get more cycling fit, and thereafter be able to tackle longer rides with more hills on them. I can't see any physical reason why she couldn't. I think it is more a question of her not wanting to end up gushing sweat when she would rather be looking around and enjoying the scenery, which is fair enough.

The question is whether to assume that with increasing fitness, her need for assistance would greatly diminish and therefore a lighter bike with a smaller battery would be fine, or to assume that any improved fitness would lead to longer, hillier rides where a bigger battery might be needed for assistance/'insurance'.

** Probably an ebike pun in there!


Nice theory. Kow do you account for the fact that she beat the guy on the Haibike, when she was on a relatively low-powered Batribike then? She was not that heavy, and you couls see that she was making tremendous torque with her low cadence. I can imagine that she was of similar build to OP's girlfriend, though probably older. I was very impressed by her efforts, which is why I remember it so well.
I have a different friend who is a superbly fit cyclist. She is in her mid-50s, tiny (5'1" or 5'2", 7.5 stone), and she can blow away me and almost all of the other cyclists that I know on the longest and steepest climbs in the Yorkshire Dales! If she climbed on an ebike, it would almost be scary to watch - she would probably be riding uphill at close to the motor cut-off speed...
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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Basildon
My pal is currently** in a bit of a Catch-22 situation with cycling. Because we live in hilly area and she finds those hills hard, she doesn't do much cycling. Because she doesn't do much cycling, she never gets cycling fit and finds the hills hard!

We rode the (Morecambe) Bay Way together a couple of years ago. Most of that is flat or undulating but we added a lumpy detour up the side of Coniston Water, up and over to Hawkshead, then back to the Bay Way via Windermere. She coped much better than I expected on the 4 or 5 significant hills that we did encounter so I think she can do more when she feels motivated to do it!

I'm hoping that with motor assistance she will start riding regularly, get more cycling fit, and thereafter be able to tackle longer rides with more hills on them. I can't see any physical reason why she couldn't. I think it is more a question of her not wanting to end up gushing sweat when she would rather be looking around and enjoying the scenery, which is fair enough.

The question is whether to assume that with increasing fitness, her need for assistance would greatly diminish and therefore a lighter bike with a smaller battery would be fine, or to assume that any improved fitness would lead to longer, hillier rides where a bigger battery might be needed for assistance/'insurance'.

** Probably an ebike pun in there!



I have a different friend who is a superbly fit cyclist. She is in her mid-50s, tiny (5'1" or 5'2", 7.5 stone), and she can blow away me and almost all of the other cyclists that I know on the longest and steepest climbs in the Yorkshire Dales! If she climbed on an ebike, it would almost be scary to watch - she would probably be riding uphill at close to the motor cut-off speed...
Even the weakest ebike systems give loads of power, at least equivalent to someone pedalling for you. An average unfit cyclist can maintain around 100w. A regular cyclist around 150w and a sports cyclist around 200w. An average ebike gives over 400w at the back wheel.

At 64kg, she'll be going everywhere on level 1. For a her first few trips, she might turn the power up to level 3 (of 5) for steep hills and maybe maximum for exceptionally steep climbs, but after a few rides, she'll probably enjoy the challenge of tackling everything on level 1 and just using the higher levels when she's in a hurry or tired.

I hate to be sexist, but I've dealt with many women in the electric bike shop and others, and there is a bit of a pattern to what they want. Generally, they like soft power and light weight. They get put off very easily if the bike takes off more quickly than what they're comfortable with.

I've been building electric bikes for ten years of every type from the highest power to the lightest weight. In the beginning I was very unfit so I built powerful, but heavy bikes. Now, I wouldn't be seen dead on anything like that. My main bike is a utility bike as my main means of transport for journeys up to 40 miles round trip. It has to cope with heavy shopping, towing and other things, so is a bit heavier than what I like. There's no question that for leisure riding, the lighter the bike, the more enjoyable and convenient it is. I would always advise someone to get the lightest bike they can that meets their other requirements.
 
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Adam Nervous

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jul 20, 2020
20
3
Not really you don't have to remove the rear wheel if you set up for tube less otherwise repair the tube by just removing the tyre on one side or fit a Gaadi tube.
Not really you don't have to remove the rear wheel if you set up for tube less otherwise repair the tube by just removing the tyre on one side or fit a Gaadi tube.
I carry a Holt's car puncture aerosol. It does the trick, and gets you home.
 

soundwave

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May 23, 2015
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the only time i seen a rear wheel fail with that installed is when it was snapped in half.

not cheap but pretty much makes a wheel bomb proof to punctures and jumping of cliffs doing back flips :p
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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60mm every 3 month in each tyre and that will last 2 years. i top it up buy removing the valve core and using a syringe so a 2 min job.