How about suggesting to DoT...

[flecc]

I am a law abiding person, BUT the law as it stands makes me a criminal for doing 20 mph and having a bike that's just over the legal limit! 20 mph is safer on the road for me! I have few cycle paths where I live so have to fight it out with the traffic.

I take your point, but that isn't actually classed as a crime, just a civil offence.

I have plenty of sympathy with all the views expressed about greater freedom, but I realise the futility of arguing about it.

We are going to have the EU regulations whether we like it or not, and it should be remembered it was thanks to Europe that we got our assisted speed increased from 12 to 15 mph long ago, the latter allowed to 17 mph with the 10% tolerance permitted. So European regulation isn't all bad, that 5 mph increase was not to be sniffed at.
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[Grizzly Bear]

a copper was on another thread who pointed out unless a serious crash happened the constabulary would be extremely unlikely to care about fast ebikes, especially for a law abiding person who doesn't otherwise attract their attention...

What if a child steps off the pavement and is knocked down by an illegal ebike, it's not the riders fault, but the full weight of the law will fall if the bike doesn't conform to legislation!

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I take your point, but that isn't actually classed as a crime, just a civil offence.

I have plenty of sympathy with all the views expressed about greater freedom, but I realise the futility of arguing about it.

We are going to have the EU regulations whether we like it or not, and it should be remembered it was thanks to Europe that we got our assisted speed increased from 12 to 15 mph long ago, the latter allowed to 17 mph with the 10% tolerance permitted. So European regulation isn't all bad, that 5 mph increase was not to be sniffed at.
.

It is a crime if you are using an unregistered motor vehicle, arguing gets things changed, that's what the Germans do obviously!

 

[Alex728]

What if a child steps off the pavement and is knocked down by an illegal ebike, it's not the riders fault, but the full weight of the law will fall if the bike doesn't conform to legislation!

You'd still get in trouble even on a perfectly legal push bike even if its "not the riders fault" as you're expected to have been looking out for the kid.

although we don't explicitly have the other European law that the "harder/wheeled road user is automatically liable", many reports of RTC's I've read seem to imply that the UK prosecutions are heading that way.

If I see a child on the pavement (or a cat or dog) I tend to automatically prepare to slow down / stop if need be. to me that just seems like basic road awareness and courtesy...

 

[flecc]

arguing gets things changed,

It certainly does, it will get the law enforced, not at all what we want.

Anyway, arguing is not what the Germans have done, they have not changed EU law on pedelecs at all, the regulations are the same for them. They have just added the higher speed class, for which the bike models have to be put through type approval by the manufacturer, then registered, number plated and insured against third party risks with annual vehicle insurance. The great majority of their e-bikers use the normal pedelecs, only a tiny minority in the S class with three makes of bike only.
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[lemmy]

Actually my friends who occasionally go over to dance music festivals in France say the traffic cops there are stricter than in the UK

They are. The traffic laws are applied rigorously - no leeway on a 50kph other than 5% for speedo accuracy. For an infraction, they always apply the law, again no leeway.

Going to the gym one morning in Bayeux, I unthinkingly went up a short one way street. Just my luck, cop car came into the street. Made me reverse up the street and stop. I tried speaking in English as if I was a tourist. He said 'your car is French registered and is not a hire car. Please speak French.' I said I wasn't familiar with the area he just said 'did you drive up a one way street?' I said yes, he said 'then that is infraction' (all this in French, obviously) and took me to a cashpoint where I paid him €90 and he gave me my receipt.

No leeway at all. There is a law and it is enforced, not negotiated like it is here. No banter with them either. And random drink drive road blocks too.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

It certainly does, it will get the law enforced, not at all what we want.

Anyway, arguing is not what the Germans have done, they have not changed EU law on pedelecs at all, the regulations are the same for them. They have just added the higher speed class, for which the bike models have to be put through type approval by the manufacturer, then registered, number plated and insured against third party risks with annual vehicle insurance. The great majority of their e-bikers use the normal pedelecs, only a tiny minority in the S class with three makes of bike only.
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The law will be enforced soon anyway, when the new regulations come into force.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

You'd still get in trouble even on a perfectly legal push bike even if its "not the riders fault" as you're expected to have been looking out for the kid.

although we don't explicitly have the other European law that the "harder/wheeled road user is automatically liable", many reports of RTC's I've read seem to imply that the UK prosecutions are heading that way.

If I see a child on the pavement (or a cat or dog) I tend to automatically prepare to slow down / stop if need be. to me that just seems like basic road awareness and courtesy...

I am very aware of children when I'm cycling, but I think the parents should be held responsible if one of their kids gets knocked down on the road, come to think of it, some of the parents are just as bad!
kids, parents, dogs, cats, cars, buses, lorries, coppers, pot holes etc. etc. why do we do it?

 

[HarryB]

....parents should be held responsible if one of their kids gets knocked down on the road,

I take it you are either not a parent or that you are so old that you brought up your children when there were very few cars on the road. I can tell you that walking the children to school is an absolute nightmare in the mornings. No leeway is given for children and short of putting reigns on them there is not much you can do if they see a friend crossing the road and try to follow them. Of course the easy solution is to drive to school and that is what most people do, however short the journey - I don't blame them.

 

[lemmy]

I think the parents should be held responsible if one of their kids gets knocked down on the road
kids, parents, dogs, cats, cars, buses, lorries, coppers, pot holes etc. etc. why do we do it?

I don't feel sorry for myself at all when I'm cycling In fact I still enjoy it.

It is hard to blame the parents directly since most of the time the kids are walking to school on their own. But surely it's not too much trouble to keep an eye out for them.

I've seen idiot kids playing chicken with the traffic. I've seen idiot drivers ploughing over a pedestrian crossings when there are children crossing.

The fact remains that the cast majority of road users conduct themselves in a pretty straightforward way, giving and taking as they make their way around out busy roads.

 

[Alex728]

round here the kids who are most likely to "jaywalk" are usually late junior school or early high school age.. even so I think the risk of really bad crashes is much rarer than people fear, even the most rebellious kids have some sense of self-preservation (as do most pets and livestock) so a cyclist travelling at a suitable speed has plenty of time to react without risk to anyone.

Although I have no kids of my own it was only a few decades ago I was a young road user myself, and the roads have got busier and less safe for children, and even in 1982 (then aged 10) my parents did not like me riding bikes as it was "dangerous".

Many kids are already denied their freedom to play outside for a variety of reasons, to the detriment of their health and well-being, and there is already a culture in this country of "might makes right" on the roads - for instance I read that lollipop ladies/men are often abused by motorists, something unthinkable even in my comparatively recent childhood

Why not try and reverse this trend, by giving them back their rightful space on the streets? with an ebike having to slow down for a bit is hardly a major loss of time..

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I take it you are either not a parent or that you are so old that you brought up your children when there were very few cars on the road. I can tell you that walking the children to school is an absolute nightmare in the mornings. No leeway is given for children and short of putting reigns on them there is not much you can do if they see a friend crossing the road and try to follow them. Of course the easy solution is to drive to school and that is what most people do, however short the journey - I don't blame them.

I am a parent, I brought my kids up not to be a danger to themselves or other people, as my parents did we me and my brother. I regularly see children of pre-school age, some little more than toddlers, playing on the pavement on busy main roads, where are the parents? Imagine if you were driving along a road and a small child ran out from behind a car straight in front of you, you would have no chance of avoiding the poor child. You would feel terrible as would any decend person, but would it be your fault? I say no, it's the parents fault for allowing them to me there. When people have children they owe them a duty of care.
As for the absolute nightmare of walking the children to school, do you think that it is parents taking their's to school, that are not allowing you the leeway you deserve, and yes we used reigns on both our kids until they got some road sense.

 

[HarryB]

I think we live in different countries. I never see toddlers playing in the street unattended so this must be unique to where you live. I don't think children really have a proper idea about road safety until 9 or 10 (although they can judge the danger they still struggle to judge speed) and I don't see many going around with their parents holding their reigns. There was a book in the 60's that tried to blame the parents for accidents with a children - sorrry but I think it is just an excuse to drive around without taking any care. And no it is not just parents of children taking their children to school...and I am not talking about letting your children dart out between cars - there is no reason for this to happen. I am talking about trying to cross a road at a road crossing point.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I think we live in different countries. I never see toddlers playing in the street unattended so this must be unique to where you live. I don't think children really have a proper idea about road safety until 9 or 10 (although they can judge the danger they still struggle to judge speed) and I don't see many going around with their parents holding their reigns. There was a book in the 60's that tried to blame the parents for accidents with a children - sorrry but I think it is just an excuse to drive around without taking any care. And no it is not just parents of children taking their children to school...and I am not talking about letting your children dart out between cars - there is no reason for this to happen. I am talking about trying to cross a road at a road crossing point.

You must live in a nice area where people care more about their children. I aggree that the standard of driving and the attitude of drivers leaves a lot to be desired. Hardly a day goes buy when I don't feel threatened on the road, and I'm an ex biker used to idiots trying to kill me! I don't drive a car or ride a motorbike anymore, by choice by the way.

 

[eddieo]

I think we live in different countries. I never see toddlers playing in the street unattended so this must be unique to where you live.

me neither.... maybe on some sink estate somewhere, why do you think they are introducing 20 mph limits in suburban areas. years ago a child of about 8 dashed out and collided with the front of my car, bounced of and nearly got hit by approaching traffic from the other direction...all because they saw a friend on other side of the road. I was blameless as almost stationary in traffic outside a school, but it still haunts me...Harry's right they just don't think.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

me neither.... maybe on some sink estate somewhere, why do you think they are introducing 20 mph limits in suburban areas. years ago a child of about 8 dashed out and collided with the front of my car, bounced of and nearly got hit by approaching traffic from the other direction...all because they saw a friend on other side of the road. I was blameless as almost stationary in traffic outside a school, but it still haunts me...Harry's right they just don't think.

That's where parents come in my friend, you have to think for them, it's called parenting, a lost skill so it seems!

 

[HarryB]

That's where parents come in my friend, you have to think for them, it's called parenting, a lost skill so it seems!

...I am off to find some elastic, some rope etc...got to stop them running around!

 

[Miles]

Yes, 20 mph speed limit in built up areas is the answer...

 

[Grizzly Bear]

...I am off to find some elastic, some rope etc...got to stop them running around!

Good man! but only on the steet hey! I think you're taking me just all the wrong way! If it takes elastic and rope to keep em safe, then that's what you need to use, otherwise just common sense, another thing lacking these days buy the way!

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Yes, 20 mph speed limit in built up areas is the answer...

Yeah 20mph! I'd feel safer for sure!