I'm not entirely sure this is fair....?

[indalo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-15653060

Now, I don't know the answer to this but are all the companies and institutions working at advancing our ability to live our lives without draining the planet's resources getting funding in this way?

If not, what exactly marks out Nissan's car as so special to deserve this money? Furthermore, I could hazard a guess but perhaps somebody could tell me exactly where this funding comes from, especially in these difficult economic times in Europe?

Indalo

 

[lemmy]

If not, what exactly marks out Nissan's car as so special to deserve this money

How can you ask? All electric cars are zero pollution good things and the answer to all of our green and energy issues.

I expect the money comes from the usual place - our pockets. I for one am more than happy to have my money spent on subsidizing electric cars, certainly a better use of my resources than anything I might have want to have done with it.

Blessed are the Nissan Leaf purchasers for they will inherit my money

 

[flecc]

Politicians are very keen on the idea of electric cars as a way of helping to solve the environmental and many other problems they face, so I see this as a promotion to both support Nissan's high profile entry to this market and as an indication to other manufacturers of favourable treatment.

This level of funding is peanuts to the commission, especially since they've fined VW alone over 60 million euros over price fixing and other manufacturers a variety of lesser but still substantial sums. So it could be seen as motor industry self financing.

There may also be partial support for Nissan through political fear of their enterprise failing. Many of those on Nissan's prospective order list have dropped out and the sales of all makes of e-cars in Europe are very poor. They are far too expensive, the Leaf for example now well over £31,000 for a limited range small hatchback. The battery warranty is four years and indications are that will be it's life. Since the replacement battery is over half the new car price, it is nothing more than a rich man's toy.

We will be driving fossil fuel cars for many decades yet.

 

[morphix]

Why aren't ebike manufacturers and related businesses getting EU grants and state support? Perhaps some are? Surely as well as supporting the car industry (which granted is important to the UK economy) they should be promoting an industry which reduces the amount of fossil fuel cars on the roads, and is far more affordable to the masses and a more a practical solution for commuters? Just maintaining/expanding our infrastructure to cope with ever more traffic is a huge growing burden.

 

[hihihi]

My personal theory is:

Imagine you owned a fuel resource business that is enjoying (huuge) success. You then might endeavour to protect it with all legal means.
Examples could be, ensuring alternative fuel patents were made safe and encouraging inefficient versions thereof.
Maybe this Nissan will prove to be as good a form of transport as the 3-bladed windmills are at harnessing energy.

(remember, just a personal theory, without any evidence, facts or similar)

 

[morphix]

My personal theory is:

Imagine you owned a fuel resource business that is enjoying (huuge) success. You then might endeavour to protect it with all legal means.
Examples could be, ensuring alternative fuel patents were made safe and encouraging inefficient versions thereof.
Maybe this Nissan will prove to be as good a form of transport as the 3-bladed windmills are at harnessing energy.

(remember, just a personal theory, without any evidence, facts or similar)

Interesting theory there and you might be right. There are huge vested interests in car manufacturers resisting change and keeping their existing business model intact as you suggest. I remember one pilot scheme in the US for electric cars were very was received by the public but the manufacturer pulled it and withdraw the car from the marketplace by refusing to support cars. Over there, they have some rules that car manufacturers have to commit a certain % of revenue to researching alternative energy vehicles.. but keeping the price high and the cars inefficient and "setting them up to fail" is one way to obviously continue their existing business model, while seeing to be green and meeting their obligations.

I guess as flecc pointed out too, the battery technology just isn't good advanced enough yet or cheap enough. Manufacturers are nervous about warranty side of things I expect.

 

[flecc]

I guess as flecc pointed out too, the battery technology just isn't good advanced enough yet or cheap enough. Manufacturers are nervous about warranty side of things I expect.

So much so that the Leaf's rivals based on the Mitsubishi electric i-car and also from Peugeot/Citroen are only leasing them for a four year term, clearly the battery life since they won't contemplate longer. The ownership and use costs are similar to the Leaf, just a little less.

I don't buy the suppression of new technology argument. Manufacturers don't care what makes their money and e-cars could be a whole new market in part adding to their current business. The simple fact is that current factors make e-cars a dead end.

1) The batteries are technically well short of what is needed, a claimed 90 mile range which in truth is 60/70 miles with normal driving just isn't enough, especially when the battery's range declines as it ages. It could be only 40 miles as it nears four years old.

2) The low demand and consequent small and expensive production makes fundamental prices too high.

3) The failures of untried technology, especially the large batteries, means warranty costs could be high, adding to the initial pricing.

4) Lithium is a scarce resource and there isn't a cat-in-hells chance of there being enough for even a small proportion of us owning e-cars.

5) There's no agreement on the battery technology to use, each being the least bad of a poor bunch. Smart and the Think car use "salt" technology which is only any use in constantly used cars. Others use LiFePO4 and variants like sulphur. There's also the rival part time petrol full hybrids like the Chevrolet Volt and Chinese BYD, though the latter seems to be hitting production and sales problems with hints of technical troubles too.

I see current e-cars as mainly there to please the politicians by satisfying their demands. If/when they fail in the market the politicians can't say the industry hasn't tried.

 

[lemmy]

Maybe this Nissan will prove to be as good a form of transport as the 3-bladed windmills are at harnessing energy.

Hard to say. For a given amount of wind power, the maximum a turbine can extract is between 10 and 30%.

For a given amount of fossil fuel burned at the power generating plant, it must be a very small percentage that actually gets put down on the road by the Leaf's wheels.

 

[Kudoscycles]

We have off our coasts the London Windfarm...all this is political. In the coldest months of the year when the electricity requirement is at it's peak we have high pressure over the UK...high pressure invariably yields no wind>no electricity...surely our past and present government realised this? The worst ever investment but it's green so the governments feel compelled to support it....when the powercuts start in the depths of winter, nuclear will not seem so bad! Especially when the largest nuclear power station in Europe is only 25 miles from Dover (Gravelines,France)
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[andyh2]

Bit biased perhaps, but I wonder if applying the subsidy to electric assist bikes would make more difference to 'carbon footprint' and potentially changing transport habits.

 

[hihihi]

Further to my 9-days old posting and by way of amendment...

"My personal theory is:

Imagine you owned a fuel resource business that is enjoying (huuge) success. You then might endeavour to protect it with all legal means.
Examples could be, ensuring alternative fuel patents were made safe and encouraging inefficient versions thereof.
Maybe this Nissan will prove to be as good a form of transport as the 3-bladed windmills are at harnessing energy.

(remember, just a personal theory, without any evidence, facts or similar)"

...I have refreshed my memory via the book "The Secret War of Charles Fraser-Smith", in which the author recounts his troubles in getting reluctant battery manufacturers to supply him with three times more efficient ones than available on the open market (they cost the same to produce). Charles Fraser-Smith, "The 'Q' Gadget Wizard Of World War II", urgently needed them to power miniature radios.

Some "facts" after all to support my "theory"...

 

[flecc]

Further to my 9-days old posting and by way of amendment...

...I have refreshed my memory via the book "The Secret War of Charles Fraser-Smith", in which the author recounts his troubles in getting reluctant battery manufacturers to supply him with three times more efficient ones than available on the open market (they cost the same to produce). Charles Fraser-Smith, "The 'Q' Gadget Wizard Of World War II", urgently needed them to power miniature radios.

Some "facts" after all to support my "theory"...

But very out of date support though, circumstances have radically changed since then. The industry was dominated by a very few names who had no retail applications at the time and little competitor stimulus to provoke action.

All that has changed, there's a very large number of manufacturers now, operating in a very competitive environment in which technical advantage is very important, both for sales and additional profit margins. No-one is holding up battery development, and I don't see any other industry as being very much different in these respects today. The threat of corporate failure is far too real today for any company to resist a competitive advantage possibility.

 

[hihihi]

Yes, of course, you are right, Flecc. "circumstances" are indeed very different now.

 

[mike killay]

Well, frankly, a 100 mile range is hopeless. For me to go to London ,it is 200 miles.
And just how green are electric cars?
My e-bike is partially nuclear powered!

 

[flecc]

Well, frankly, a 100 mile range is hopeless. For me to go to London ,it is 200 miles.
And just how green are electric cars?
My e-bike is partially nuclear powered!

That range is only the promise when new, the practical reality will be more like two thirds of that when new, declining with age and useless for many.

Current e-cars are not at all green, quite the contrary. Many use huge lithium batteries with correspondingly large amounts of scarce lithium used, and exhausting a scarce resource is anything but green. Some use hot running "salt" batteries, and these have to be kept hot all the time with continuous current. Their working temperatures are between 250 and 400 degrees C, nothing remotely green about keeping them hot like that.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Nissan Leaf......try pedalling one home!
Dave
KudosCycles