Kalkhoff Batteries

[Biged]

Why don't we get the 12ah battery here?
The 10ah fitted pretty much as standard here is not even listed on the German Kalkhoff site, strange that

 

[NRG]

I think Tim said it was a Kalkhoff decision but no reason was given....

 

[flecc]

It may be related to the fact that Panasonic have now introduced 12 Ah in their 10 Ah casing.

The Kalkhoff/Derby decision to use BMZ batteries will hardly have delighted Panasonic I imagine, especially since Panasonic equally have a 12 Ah now, also in a larger case a 15 Ah which is currently increasing to 16 Ah.
.

 

[funkylyn]

I hadn't previously really picked up on the fact that the new kalkoff battery is not now panasonic but bmz, will it be as good ?

So now I suppose we cant refer to these bikes as the 'panasonic system ' anymore ?

Has this change been for costs or to get an even better battery or does no- one know yet ?

 

[eddieo]

I hadn't previously really picked up on the fact that the new kalkoff battery is not now panasonic but bmz, will it be as good ?

So now I suppose we cant refer to these bikes as the 'panasonic system ' anymore ?

Has this change been for costs or to get an even better battery or does no- one know yet ?

Many on here wondering the same thing...and wont consider a new Kalkhoff 18Ah until warranty matches theoretical claims

I think I will treat myself to a new wisper for the summer

 

[tillson]

I hadn't previously really picked up on the fact that the new kalkoff battery is not now panasonic but bmz, will it be as good ?

So now I suppose we cant refer to these bikes as the 'panasonic system ' anymore ?

Has this change been for costs or to get an even better battery or does no- one know yet ?

The motor/drive is still Panasonic, it's just the battery that has changed to a BMZ.

It's too early to tell if the BMZ battery is any better or any worse. Realistically, we won't know the answer to that question for about a couple of years yet, when they have undergone a period of real world use.

I think the warranty on the BMZ battery is still the same, two years, so that isn't bad as the industry goes at present. The claimed battery life has also become a little more wild at 5 years / 1100 charge cycles, but no confidence to match that with a warranty as yet. Read into that what you like! We will just have to wait and see if it delivers.

 

[flecc]

Naturally Derby/Kalkhoff/BMZ and the national agents will say they are as good or better, but of course we will only know that over time. Packing 18 Ah in that small case may be the magician's smoke and mirrors. Battery capacity depends on the rate of current use, so a battery can be called various capacities, depending on how it's used.

For example, A to B magazine tested one 10 Ah e-bike battery in a variety of discharge rates. At the lowest rate of current usage it provided the 10 Ah, but at the highest rate they tested at it provided less than 7 Ah.

So what you get from any battery depends on the usage. Running the BMZ 18 Ah battery on the Eco power setting on a Kalhoff will provide far more current than if it's run in the High power mode all the time.

A rechargeable lithium battery's life also depends on the rate of current usage, the harder it's worked, the shorter time it lives.

Therefore there is no definitive answer on these batteries yet, though with the reputations at stake, we can be sure that those involved have done their level best to make them perform well.

N.B. Post crossed with Tillson's.
.

 

[tillson]

Naturally Derby/Kalkhoff/BMZ and the national agents will say they are as good or better, but of course we will only know that over time. Packing 18 Ah in that small case may be the magician's smoke and mirrors. Battery capacity depends on the rate of current use, so a battery can be called various capacities, depending on how it's used.

For example, A to B magazine tested one 10 Ah e-bike battery in a variety of discharge rates. At the lowest rate of current usage it provided the 10 Ah, but at the highest rate they tested at it provided less than 7 Ah.

So what you get from any battery depends on the usage. Running the BMZ 18 Ah battery on the Eco power setting on a Kalhoff will provide far more current than if it's run in the High power mode all the time.

A rechargeable lithium battery's life also depends on the rate of current usage, the harder it's worked, the shorter time it lives.

Therefore there is no definitive answer on these batteries yet, though with the reputations at stake, we can be sure that those involved have done their level best to make them perform well.

N.B. Post crossed with Tillson's.
.

50 Cycles are claiming the following:

New technology allows 18Ah to be packed into this new 3.1kg battery pack, offering range up to 87 miles in normal assistance mode.

This is more than is claimed for the 10 Ah pack in normal mode, so the fact that more capacity has been crammed into roughly the same battery space, doesn't seem to raise any caution with regard to performance claims. As you say, with good reputations at stake, they must have done their homework. It will be interesting to hear the early adopters report back on this one.

 

[funkylyn]

I think if they are claiming a 5 yr life then they should have at least upped the guarantee to 3years to show more confidence over the panasonics 2 yr guarantee.

the raleigh dover is one bike I am considering along with wisper models and battery power/life is obviously crucial.
Oh, this is all so complicated, I just said to a friend the other day......sometimes I wish I was the sort of person who, when they want something, just goes and buys it, instead of having to read/study/agonize for months before the purchase

But I always have to make as sure as possible that I am buying the best that I can afford.........( when looking for my stud dog I went to the best kennels in USA and imported him !!)
Anyway, back to bikes/batteries/decisions .....I suppose the upside is that I get to 'chat' to all you nice people

 

[tillson]

I think if they are claiming a 5 yr life then they should have at least upped the guarantee to 3years to show more confidence over the panasonics 2 yr guarantee.

the raleigh dover is one bike I am considering along with wisper models and battery power/life is obviously crucial.
Oh, this is all so complicated, I just said to a friend the other day......sometimes I wish I was the sort of person who, when they want something, just goes and buys it, instead of having to read/study/agonize for months before the purchase

But I always have to make as sure as possible that I am buying the best that I can afford.........( when looking for my stud dog I went to the best kennels in USA and imported him !!)
Anyway, back to bikes/batteries/decisions .....I suppose the upside is that I get to 'chat' to all you nice people

There is no doubt that the Panasonic battery is one of the best available, it doesn't live up to the claims, but none of them do. Unfortunately, battery performance and life claims are all, "optimum conditions" a bit like MPG claims made by car manufacturers. You never get what they promise.

 

[flecc]

they are claiming a 5 yr life

All batteries can last a very long time, but whether they are any use is another matter. If it works in Eco mode on the level for one mile at five years old, the claim is valid. Climbing a very long hill in High Power mode is likely to be a very different thing though.

No other battery company is claiming anything like five years for any lithium type in e-bike use.
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[tillson]

Assume that you will need to buy a new battery after two years. If all the plus factors of owning an ebike add up and outweigh the battery cost, go for it.

At the moment, every time I ride past a petrol station, it makes more sense to own an ebike. Especially when passing a British Pirates (BP) filling station. Amazingly you see idiots on their forecourts pumping BP's liquid rip-off into their tanks.

 

[flecc]

Especially when passing a British Pirates (BP) filling station. Amazingly you see idiots on their forecourts pumping BP's liquid rip-off into their tanks.

In fairness, it's cost is mainly our government's tax rip-off (81.5%). Without that it would be one of the cheap travel options.
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[lemmy]

Amazingly you see idiots on their forecourts pumping BP's liquid rip-off into their tanks.

I find it hard to see that everyone buying petrol is an idiot

I use my car for driving on holiday to France, Scotland. Ireland, getting the weekly shop, visiting friends 75 miles away and many more things.

Given the fuel efficiency of my modern small (1600cc) diesel, the actual fuel costs per mile travelled are not so wildly different from my Kalkhoff.

A new battery every 2 years at £400 and my 1500 miles a year on my bike give me a fuel price per mile of 13p even excluding the cost of charging. My car (measured brim to brim) averages a fraction over 60mpg in normal use, more for long distances. Diesel at £6.20 per gallon gives me a fuel cost of 11p per mile. For 2, that's 5.5p per mile. And that's with the fuel tax burden that Flecc mentions.

On a cost basis, it's the Kalkhoff that's for idiots in fuel cost terms. Except, of course, that it's horses for courses and they are used for different things.

I do feel that early adopters of electric cars are in for a shock if they don't do their research thoroughly. The cost of replacement batteries for these makes them makes current models untenable in my view. And in the UK, given that we mainly get electricity from fossil fuels, their overall pollution is greater too.

 

[indalo]

Lemmy, I enjoyed reading your piece which, on the face of it, made an interesting comparison. I'm sure you'd be the first to admit however, that you were more than a little selective in your choice of statistics.

It's the apples and pears comparison again as it's impossible to compare fairly the economics of two forms of transport which cannot fulfil the same range of functions.

I'm no scientist but I'm confident the comparison you draw would fail to satisfy any kind of real forensic examination. Just for starters, when an ebike can carry four passengers and pull a caravan on motorways, then it might be reasonable to subject cars and ebikes to comparative cost analysis. I'd speculate there are very few one-car families who could swop the car for one....or several...ebikes without some real sacrifices.

Regards,
Indalo

 

[eddieo]

You dont need a car for supermarket shopping...they deliver? far more efficently with multiple deliverys from one gas gussler and you probably spend less? less impulse buying?

 

[flecc]

I do feel that early adopters of electric cars are in for a shock if they don't do their research thoroughly. The cost of replacement batteries for these makes them makes current models untenable in my view.

The shock is already built in. They are only being sold using two marketing models. The Nissan Leaf includes the battery and is well over £28,000 for that small hatchback. The fact that there is a £5000 Government subsidy to come off that is immaterial to the true cost. Nissan say that just over half the £28,000 is the battery price

The others from Peugeot and Renault are to be leased only for four year periods at prices that cover the battery cost, much dearer for present private car users than their existing costs.

So there you have it, a new battery can be expected to cost over £14,000 every four years, on top of the car's capital cost of around £23,000 after subsidy. A typical private owner will spend at least £51,000 plus electricity without counting inflation to own a small hatchback for ten years and it will be worthless at that point. An owner of a fossil fuelled car would need to do over 30,000 miles a year, every year for the ten years to reach those sort of cost levels.

Second hand values of the Leaf will be low as the car ages, who will buy a car for anything like a decent return at three years old when an over £14,000 battery will be needed within a year?
.

 

[lemmy]

You dont need a car for supermarket shopping...they deliver? far more efficently with multiple deliverys from one gas gussler and you probably spend less? less impulse buying?

Doesn't work for me eddieo. The supermarket I use is less then a two mile return trip, almost certainly more efficient for me than a truck coming from the warehouse 20miles away and a £5 charge.

I may impulse buy in a bike shop, a camera shop or a guitar shop - I am afraid there is nothing in a supermarket that tempts me on impulse.

Indalo, yes I agree. What strikes me mainly, though, is that the running cost of a five seat car can bear any comparison with an electric bike at all. But horses for courses, yes.

Flecc, blimey, it's even worse than I thought!

 

[banbury frank]

Horse

hi I agree with the last post we should all go back to riding a Horse

They are allowed to do more than 15 MPH


Frank

 

[tillson]

I find it hard to see that everyone buying petrol is an idiot

I probably didn't make it clear. It's the fact that they are buying it from a BP filling station. It's 7p a litre cheaper at the Shell garage 3 miles away. BP generally seem to be the most expensive.