looking for somebody to build me a bike

[Beach Thorncombe]

The technical standards for pedelecs are specified in EN15194, and most e-bikes on the market are approved laboratory tested to meet the standards.

In brief, EN 15194 requires a pedelec is capable of delivering 250 watts continuously without self damage, but does not set a maximum power limit.

Both of my last two approved e-bikes deliver well over the 250 watts continuously without damage or uncontrolled temperature rise, even on very hot summer days. Gross is around 1000 watts and throttle only can deliver to the road over 560 watts continuously. Calculation from actual climb performances confirm that.

And as I believe I mentioned previously, your Powabyke Euros will slog continuously with 600 watts at 7 mph when climbing. Indeed a few years ago A to B magazine published a graph of that Powabyke power curve.

EN15194 will cost you £190 from BSI publications, or £90 if you are a member of the BSI. It's not a great bedtime read though!
.

Thanks for the info, Flecc. Appreciated.

Yes. My Euro's are great hill climbers. Especially if running on lighter lithium based power packs.

 

[Todd]

Good morning all,
I would just like to clarify a few things, thank you for everybody's input, the reason I wish to change my bike are the zephyr is very difficult to manoeuver when it is folded in half it's awkward, through the fact that the handlebars don't move and it stays very very bulky, allso it cannot take a luggage rack on the back of the bike, for pannier bags as suspension will not allow it to, even folded in two the bike takes up substantial amount of room, it's a fun bike to ride, but I need something a bit more practical, the idea of a smaller folding bike with a rack behind the saddle on the back wheel, will be able to place two oblong batteries would be ideal. With a front hub motor to help balance the bike out, I hope that makes some kind of sense what are peoples thoughts?

 

[Woosh]

Good morning Todd,

If it's only the width of the handlebars, how about replacing the handlebars with a folding bar?

or a flipbar stem:

 

[Beach Thorncombe]

Good morning all,
I would just like to clarify a few things, thank you for everybody's input, the reason I wish to change my bike are the zephyr is very difficult to manoeuver when it is folded in half it's awkward, through the fact that the handlebars don't move and it stays very very bulky, allso it cannot take a luggage rack on the back of the bike, for pannier bags as suspension will not allow it to, even folded in two the bike takes up substantial amount of room, it's a fun bike to ride, but I need something a bit more practical, the idea of a smaller folding bike with a rack behind the saddle on the back wheel, will be able to place two oblong batteries would be ideal. With a front hub motor to help balance the bike out, I hope that makes some kind of sense what are peoples thoughts?

I checked online, (imagining I was you, Todd) ... and came across several possible electric folders that might meet your remit ... but eventually focussed on something called a Voltbike.

The review I include in this link, https://electricbikereview.com/voltbike/urban-folding/ is American, (I think), but that may not matter.

I wonder if any UK dealers stock such a machine?

The Voltbike looks pretty decent for a budget pedelec ... and it has fold in pedals too ... so, combined with foldable handlebars, (as shown above), I think it would make a great practical compact folder.

Actually, any ebike with fold up handlebars and fold in pedals, (two features I had not previously been aware of), could probably turn any bike into a more compact machine.

 

[Beach Thorncombe]

Ahh. Sadly, it doesn't look like the Voltbike Urban, (with concealed battery), is available ... according to the UK dealership website ... unless someone else is lucky enough to locate a UK one.

 

[Danidl]

Hi flecc .. is there a mistype in your email? .. my understanding is that the EN directive exempting low power pedelec types is as follows cycles having an electric motor , restricted to 250w continuous power output, such power being progressively reduced and not available above a speed of 25km /HR .
The EN directive will refer to other directives and norms for what constitutes "continuous power" and to the other attributes of the bike.
It is the cycle as a system which must conform not the motor and the manufacturer most certify that their product the bike as a system conforms. The system includes the motor, the controller and the battery

An electric motor is just a conduect for energy, if one pumps more and more current into it it will produce more and more mechanical power, until some elements in it fail. So to say a motor is capable of only 250w is simplistic just as it would be simplistic to say that a length of hose can deliver only so many litres per minute... If you increase the water pressure it will continue to deliver more and more until it ruptures

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Bosch bikes run over 18 amps at 36v. Rotwild claim 90 NM torque, so presumably 20 amps at 36v. Heinzmann 36v classic system goes from 20A to 33A. They're all certified EN15194 Who can argue with the Germans?.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Hi flecc .. is there a mistype in your email? .. my understanding is that the EN directive exempting low power pedelec types is as follows cycles having an electric motor , restricted to 250w continuous power output, such power being progressively reduced and not available above a speed of 25km /HR .
The EN directive will refer to other directives and norms for what constitutes "continuous power" and to the other attributes of the bike.
It is the cycle as a system which must conform not the motor and the manufacturer most certify that their product the bike as a system conforms. The system includes the motor, the controller and the battery

An electric motor is just a conduect for energy, if one pumps more and more current into it it will produce more and more mechanical power, until some elements in it fail. So to say a motor is capable of only 250w is simplistic just as it would be simplistic to say that a length of hose can deliver only so many litres per minute... If you increase the water pressure it will continue to deliver more and more until it ruptures

A word missing Danidl, "rated"

4.2.7
Maximum power measurement
4.2.7.1
Measurement at the engine shaft
The maximum continuous rated power shall be measured according to EN 60034-1 when the motor reaches
its thermal equilibrium as specified by the manufacturer.
NOTE
Thermal equilibrium: temperatures of motor parts do not vary more than 2K per hour.
In circumstance where the power is measured directly at the shaft of the electronic motor, the result of the
measurement shall be decreased by 1,10 to consider the measurement uncertainty and then by 1,05 to
include for example the transmission losses, unless the real values of these losses are determined.

 

[Woosh]

Back to the main topic:

There is a group review about folding bikes for boats coming out shortly. You can take a peek here:

http://www.mby.com/videos/gear/video-electric-folding-bike-group-test

Taking part: Freego, GoCycle, Kudos, Woosh, Coyote, Wisper

The Kudos Secret gives the rest a run for their money!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

That was quite an interesting review. the guy seemed to know his stuff and i think I would have made exactly the same comments, especially about the Gocycle, which is a fantastic piece of kit. there was one important thing missing though. I guess it's too flat around Lymmington. How do they perform with a fatty on them, who has to climb a steep hill from the harbour to the shops, like Ilfracombe? I think that he would have said nicer things about the Wisper in that case.

 

[Woosh]

I think torque-wise, the differences between bikes on test would not be significant. In-frame batteries seem the way to go for boat owners.

 

[brightonebikes]

It is quite remarkable how many threads get sucked into the legality question; some are practically hijacked right off topic!

The little video Woosh added is right on the button!
I'm wondering whether there are any other boat or campervan owners who may have input? Equally, people who commonly tow using their bike who may have experiences to share and recommendations therefrom?

There must be other boat / campervan / caravan owning towers out there!

Perhaps a new thread with a title containing these key requirements (compact folding E-bike for boat/campervan storage and/or referring to the desire to tow) may receive input for a wider and/or more specific audience?
I'm interested to know what is being towed, Todd. Is it a canoe or a small kayak? Is it a large picnic and light refreshments?
Happy hunting, the research is half the fun!...and getting the right build for your needs is very rewarding

 

[anotherkiwi]

I tow but with big wheels...

I have been looking at a folder so I can take it on trains and busses (hidden in a bag to escape the bike tax!) and like the Burley Travoy as an idea, not the price. Something that can carry my suitcase and arrived at the station the suitcase and the bike in its bag.

 

[Woosh]

The Woosh Gallego comes with its own carrying bag. It's about as affordable as compact folding bikes come, never mind it's electric.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?gallego

 

[Todd]

it would be pulling a bag of shopping from the supermarket, and refreshments !

the reason I'm worried about having more than needed/required power, is
i have a hart condition and can't peddle extended periods of time.

thanks for everybody's input, all very helpful

 

[Wisper Bikes]

That was quite an interesting review. the guy seemed to know his stuff and i think I would have made exactly the same comments, especially about the Gocycle, which is a fantastic piece of kit. there was one important thing missing though. I guess it's too flat around Lymmington. How do they perform with a fatty on them, who has to climb a steep hill from the harbour to the shops, like Ilfracombe? I think that he would have said nicer things about the Wisper in that case.

Absolutely Dave, a few hundred meters on a flat surface was hardly a test! I too am a little disappointed they didn't really give the bikes a proper go.

All the best, David

 

[flecc]

Hi flecc .. is there a mistype in your email? .. my understanding is that the EN directive exempting low power pedelec types is as follows cycles having an electric motor , restricted to 250w continuous power output, such power being progressively reduced and not available above a speed of 25km /HR .

EN15194 is the technical standards for complete pedelecs.

The exemption you refer to is in the Two and Three Wheeled Type Approval regulation, originally as 2002/24/EC but now incorporated within 168/2013. That does not specify how the power is to be measured or specify any such document or regulation. Below is the complete exemption extract:

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h

So only EN15194 counts in this respect, specifying two forms of permissible test. One isn't possible on many motor systems and the other is so loose one can drive the proverbial horse and cart though it.

All we need know is that approved laboratories have passed most of today's pedelecs as conforming, despite them often demonstrably have continuous power capabilities far above the type approval level.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I'm wondering whether there are any other boat or campervan owners who may have input? Equally, people who commonly tow using their bike who may have experiences to share and recommendations therefrom?

I'm a boat owner and a tower.

They missed out a vital characteristic for boat owners. I can tell you that everything you put in any locker corrodes like billy-o. I don't want to seem unkind, but I wouldn't store some of those bikes in a locker on my boat.

Towing is easy: Chinese copy Bob Yak trailers all the way. You can get a load of stuff in them and, underway, you don't even know they're there. No width problems.

 

[brightonebikes]

I'm a boat owner and a tower.

They missed out a vital characteristic for boat owners. I can tell you that everything you put in any locker corrodes like billy-o. I don't want to seem unkind, but I wouldn't store some of those bikes in a locker on my boat.

Towing is easy: Chinese copy Bob Yak trailers all the way. You can get a load of stuff in them and, underway, you don't even know they're there. No width problems.

Well, you are clearly more than suitably qualified to answer these questions.

And this is illustrated by your insight of the considerations of storing the bike in a damp, wet possibly salty water environment.

I've only ever towed my son on a tag along bike. I'll look those trailers up, could be useful for the future.

Sent from here to there with computer wizardry.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I've only ever towed my son on a tag along bike. I'll look those trailers up, could be useful for the future.

Sent from here to there with computer wizardry.

An addendum: The Bob Yak type fit to the rear wheel spindle, so can't be fitted directly to a rear hub-motor. You have to make plates to replace the outer washers. Two holes, one 12mm for the axle and one 10mm for the trailer studs. Thet fit directly to any bike if you have a front or middle motor. I'm not sure about hub-gears. Should be OK if the axle is 10mm:

http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Adventure-CT1-Folding-Cargo-Trailer_25616.htm?sku=50444&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKEAiA-rfDBRDeyOybg8jd2U4SJAAoE5XqLTZ9TF0X6ZFUNw2FxyYdX6oPnoxNbdBRkMSj7xyhKxoC32fw_wcB#

I got my Chinese knock-off from Ebay for about £60.