Modifying to Torque Sensing

[Woosh]

It's not the sensor that does that. It's the power algorithms in the controller.

You know the torque sensor outputs two signals, a cadence signal, same as the one we have in the cadence sensor, and a torque signal which is proportional to riders' effort. Controllers from Bafang, JYT, Ananda, Tongsheng all offer 5 assist levels. I have all 5 on demonstration in Southend. The next time you drop by, you can try them all. On flatish roads, an average rider can hit 15mph on any assist level, 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5. You reach 15mph of course more quickly if you are on level 5 instead of level 1.
Please explain how the algorithms may give different outcomes. If it's worth the effort, I will spend time to code for your optimal outcome.

 

[mechaniker]

a good torquesensor even does not need for starting a cadence signal, it starts immediately so that when standing on a hill you don´t need to wait for PAS signal , you get power directly when you need it the most with no hesitation. I use this "start" setup on all of my bikes.

I don´t judge Bike-Manufacturer who still order speed controll controllers , Current controlled controllers and even speed/current mixture of controllers from our factory because everybody has it´s own preference and the bike manufacturer should know best what his customer want, it´s just not my cup of tea. It made me lazy when riding e-bike and the bussiest part of my body when riding those bikes was the finger on the display buttons.

With a torque controlled bike I usually drive in step-3 because I get support from 100w to 350w just by changing the force I pedal with. If there is a steep hill I sometime change to step 5 because then I get 100w to 900w depending on the force I pedal with but I always have support in every step from 0-25 and since I use torquesensor my thump is now workless when riding e-bike

My personal experience: speed and current controll made me lazy as a bikerider without even realising it.
A friend who is a psycological doctor said to me "this is just normal human behaviour, you get used to the support and beg for more...."

 

[Peter.Bridge]

.. when standing on a hill you don´t need to wait for PAS signal , ...

My personal experience: speed and current controll made me lazy as a bikerider without even realising it.
A friend who is a psycological doctor said to me "this is just normal human behaviour, you get used to the support and beg for more...."

Completely agree on the hill starts, it's really tricky on very steep hills with a cadence sensor unless you have a "throttle"

Speed / Current control - my experience is totally the opposite though, my average heart rate on rides is the same on torque control, speed control, current control and unpowered bikes. I quite like seeing how little assistance I need on a ride, knowing that if I exhaust myself it is there if I need it

 

[JohnD135]

So is there a controller that has a better algorithm than my old S-KU65 please?

 

[saneagle]

So is there a controller that has a better algorithm than my old S-KU65 please?

Any KT.

 

[mechaniker]

I quite like seeing how little assistance I need on a rid

with this approach you´re not alone because there is a trend to see in this direction and thats why we made for our "Leadeer" set a extra small battery with integrated bluetooth display at the top of the battery and an integrated controller in the bottom of the battery to keep the bike very clean and stealth. This set works with cassette integrated torque-sensor, super easy to install even for somebody who never worked on bikes, just plug the batterycarrier to the wholes at the downtube and exchange your rear wheel, then connect the two cable, you are ready to ride. with performance that is not easy to find on famous branded bikes max output is when you pedal faster

On the other hand the most common wish among consumer though is a big battery and more power which is why I printed an extra slider for my yose battery that include an slider-extension for a one button-display (you can see it on top of the slider). Since I use those cassette integrated torquesensors I don´t need any display on my steering, just enjoy the ride. If you want play during the ride you could connect your phone to the display, check your riding data or switch between steps if necessary or simply follow the gps



@JohnD135
you need a set of controller and motor because the torque-sensor is inside the cassette-carrier (shimano, s-ram or thread) you don´t need anything at the BB anymore.

You mean S-KU65 torque-simulation controller?
After testing a few of those so called "torque-simulation" controller, my opinion, torque-simulation is just Gag from a marketing department

 

[harrys]

JohnD135, the S-KU65 is a 15A controller coupled with an analog 810LED that calls up 3 PAS levels. Two issues. First. it's overheating and second. you cannot keep up with your group?

Well, you must be running in PAS 3 full out, which contributes to overheating, A bigger controller, perhaps 20A would be able to handle more heat,. It will also give you 33% more potential watts depending on whether your battery can deliver it. How many volts is the battery, and what is its condition? A new controller will also require a new display to replace the 810LED.

While we are talking about cadence vs T/S, maybe the discussion should be about whether you have enough bike to keep up with your group. Hate to see you spend money and time. if the end result is still not sufficient. How about sharing the particulars on the bike. battery and your desired performance as far as speed.





,

 

[JohnD135]

Hi Mechaniker. I will try looking into that.
Harrys. I use 37 Volt batteries and about 1.4KWattHours. I haven't measured the capacity of the two batteries (coupled together via two big Schottky diodes) recently so they will be a bit less than that now. I can keep up with my group OK, but then I have tweaked the current limit on the S-KU65. The controller is probably overheating, because I improved the heat sinking and things improved. But not on hot days! I have limited space to fit a physically larger controller. 8.3X5.7X3.4 cm for the current one.

 

[saneagle]

Hi Mechaniker. I will try looking into that.
Harrys. I use 37 Volt batteries and about 1.4KWattHours. I haven't measured the capacity of the two batteries (coupled together via two big Schottky diodes) recently so they will be a bit less than that now. I can keep up with my group OK, but then I have tweaked the current limit on the S-KU65. The controller is probably overheating, because I improved the heat sinking and things improved. But not on hot days! I have limited space to fit a physically larger controller. 8.3X5.7X3.4 cm for the current one.

You can get 17A and 20A KT controllers the same size as the KU65.

 

[JohnD135]

Thanks saneagle. Can you recommend? The bike is 2002 so I have a legal throttle ( I carry a copy of the legislation). Also brake sensors.

 

[saneagle]

Thanks saneagle. Can you recommend? The bike is 2002 so I have a legal throttle ( I carry a copy of the legislation). Also brake sensors.

The KT controller is what I always recommend for a hub-motor. No need for a torque sensor, as it doesn't offer any advantage.

The KT can be set to have to legal functions from the throttle. You can set it to work independently to provide speed up to 6km/hr (starts the bike instantly without pedalling), and you can have at the same time the additional feature that the throttle will work as a maximum power switch whenever you're pedalling. say you like to ride on level 3 pedal assist, when you press the throttle you get instant level 5, which is very useful in traffic, like roundabouts and junctions, where you want maximum power to get through quickly and safely. When you let go of the throttle, power returns to level 3. This is all subject to the maximum speed limit that you set (normally 25km/hr).

Topbikekit is a good place to buy them from, but they're all over Ebay, Aliexpress and Amazon if you want a different version. This is the 15A 36v one. Make sure you select 36v/48v so that you can run with 48v for more power when you replace your 36v battery. You have to search for the 17A and 20A versions with the block connectors:
T06S 24V/36V-36V/48V250W 15A KT Sine Wave Brushless Controller for Ebike FT-06 36V250W Torque Simulation Square Wave Controller Brushless Controller for Ebike [T06S controller] - $24.00 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

 

[mechaniker]

as it doesn't offer any advantage.

sorry, how can you say such nonsense?
You could say "I personaly don´t like torquesensor because it doesn´t bring any advantage to me"

"one should never judge others based on oneself" or how do you explain the success of high-price bikes with torquesensor for multiple times the price of a PAS-controlled bike? are those people all stupid?

I woudn´t even take a new bike for free if it comes without torque-sensor because it doesn´t bring any advantage to me

kunteng controller is popular among people who convert their bikes because you can setup most parameter by yourself. I also used kunteng 20 years ago because of this reason and for simple PAS controlled bike it´s enough, not the best but enough.
Problem is the Hardware, it´s way to weak to handle more complex codings.... which you need when having a modern torque-sensor or want to create a special ride-feeling because then you need a powerfull chip on the controller PCB.....

 

[saneagle]

sorry, how can you say such nonsense?
You could say "I personaly don´t like torquesensor because it doesn´t bring any advantage to me"

"one should never judge others based on oneself" or how do you explain the success of high-price bikes with torquesensor for multiple times the price of a PAS-controlled bike? are those people all stupid?

I woudn´t even take a new bike for free if it comes without torque-sensor because it doesn´t bring any advantage to me

kunteng controller is popular among people who convert their bikes because you can setup most parameter by yourself. I also used kunteng 20 years ago because of this reason and for simple PAS controlled bike it´s enough, not the best but enough.
Problem is the Hardware, it´s way to weak to handle more complex codings.... which you need when having a modern torque-sensor or want to create a special ride-feeling because then you need a powerfull chip on the controller PCB.....

KT controllers work fine just as they are. I've been using them for 12 years - much better than Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha, Brose, Panasonic, etc. for riding on the road. They give you complete control over how hard you want to pedal. Torque sensors are better for off-road stuff, which is where they should stay!

 

[Woosh]

Torque sensors are better for off-road stuff, which is where they should stay!

Tell that to millions and millions of Bosch step through bikes.

 

[mechaniker]

much better than Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha, Brose, Panasonic, etc

....there comes a point where any further discussion on this matter is useless
Kunteng, the global brain of e-bike controller-inteligence

 

[Woosh]

....there comes a point where any further discussion on this matter is useless
Kunteng, the global brain of e-bike controller-inteligence

Kunteng and to a certain degree, also Bafang address the desire of some advanced users who like to tinker with their kits by providing them with easy to follow configurator tools.
Albeit I accept it's reasonable for customers to have the choice of switching between speed control, current control and mixture between the two, my interest is to provide the best customer support, tinkering is not a priority. I still wish that Lishui would still address that demand at some point, especially if it could be done via Lishui Bluetooth adapter.

 

[mechaniker]

Lishui provide this but not for the general public, for you as a dealer no problem if you are a direct client of our factory.
Please come to eurobike in frankfurt 25-29 June Hall-8-n14 and I show you how you can do it.
Take my cell number with you because I also walk around a bit. Call me and I come back to the booth

 

[saneagle]

Kunteng and to a certain degree, also Bafang address the desire of some advanced users who like to tinker with their kits by providing them with easy to follow configurator tools.
Albeit I accept it's reasonable for customers to have the choice of switching between speed control, current control and mixture between the two, my interest is to provide the best customer support, tinkering is not a priority. I still wish that Lishui would still address that demand at some point, especially if it could be done via Lishui Bluetooth adapter.

It's nothing to do with tinkering. Nobody wants to tinker. KT has a very fast response and uses current control, plus the pedal dependent throttle. When you buy a MiRider bike, that's exactly what you get, just switch on and ride.

 

[Woosh]

It's nothing to do with tinkering

Did you or anyone on here leave your KT controller like it was delivered and ride it exactly how you like it?

 

[saneagle]

Did you or anyone on here leave your KT controller like it was delivered and ride it exactly how you like it?

Many times, but that was before I worried too much about legality. After-market ones are set for the world market, so you have to do set the speed limit, like any after-market controller. OEM ones are already set just how you want them.

When you buy a KT controller with throttle, speed sensor, PAS, brakes and LCD everything works straight out of the box, but people try to save money by using their original stuff when they replace their burnt out LiShui OEM one. That's when you have to figure out settings and wiring sequences. As I said, you can buy an OEM MiRider bike and others that have KT controllers. You just switch them on and they work. No OEM manufacturer expects customers to do settings before they can ride their bike.